site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30340 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 8, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

As an aside, I find it amusing that Biden is now as tough - and perhaps tougher - than Trump ever was. All while promising to run a much more liberal immigration system during the campaign. For open borders supporters (all five of them), this must be a dark day.

On a more general note, I think the reason why people come is banally simple: money. Much of the third world has been either stagnant (Brazil) or actively declining (Venezuela). I've read that even many Indians and Chinese are now also increasing their numbers. Europe is seeing huge surges in illegal migration too. The 2015 refugee crisis is likely just a prelude of what's coming down the pike in this century.

The only really effective way to truly repel people at the border would probably be lethal violence in an organised way, which is obviously a non-starter for any liberal democracy. I'm not making any predictions, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Biden admin began to really ramp up construction of the border wall and upgrading it in older areas. Would be a funny troll in the event of Trump against Biden in 2024, which at this point seems almost certain.

As an aside, I find it amusing that Biden is now as tough - and perhaps tougher - than Trump ever was.

I believe that this is the image that Biden and his handlers are trying to project but that it's also kind of obviously bullshit because automatic parole within the US is effectively de facto non-enforcment.

As others have pointed out the establishment wings of both parties do not want a secure border. I even would go so far as to claim that this issue is perhaps the one in which interests of both party's "base" is the most obviously and diametrically opposed with the interests of those who are ostensibly in charge. The cliche woke academic line is that illegal undocumented immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do. But I think it's more accurate to say that they do the jobs that the establishment doesn't want to pay for, or at least not as much they really ought to. There's a lot of dubious nonsense out there about how the usual rules of supply and demand don't apply to labor but I am unconvinced. I think that despite the perceived chaos the current status quo is actually quite easy to understand and explain. Woke professional types want cheap avocados and an underclass of service workers who they can abuse, exploit, and threaten with deportation when they fuck up, Big Business™ types want to keep wages and costs down. By their powers combined we have the US's current immigration policy.

The cliche woke academic line is that illegal undocumented immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do. But I think it's more accurate to say that they do the jobs that the establishment doesn't want to pay for, or at least not as much they really ought to

I agree with this, there's a weird "alliance" between the proles of the third world and the elites of the first. That is also why, incidentally, the embrace of neoliberal economics by the conservative movement was a major historical error. At least conservatives in the US have stopped being braindead gung-ho war supporters of the kind we saw during the Bush era. Perhaps there could be a further evolution to a more organic skepticism of endless GDP growth, which is the underlying ideology justifying mass migration.

At least European refugee situations are quite clearly, at least to some degree, the result of wars. During the 2015-2016 crisis the top countries for asylum applicants were Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, and all of those were in the grip of a civil war at the time.

During the 2015-2016 crisis the top countries for asylum applicants were Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq

That's what they claimed. In reality, many just bought fake passports in Turkish bazaars. Others threw away their passports once they crossed the border and claimed they were from Syria. Under the rules that existed then, it wasn't possible to deport them.

Today countries like Tunisia, Pakistan and Bangladesh are much more numerous even if the old ones like Syria still dominate. It has morphed into a general economic migration. Of course, everyone will claim they are fleeing war because they know that will increase their chances.

That said, the wars in Syria and Afghanistan certainly made matters worse. Which is why Europe's enthusiasm for America's imperial wars is perplexing to me. The blowback often shows up on Europe's shores - literally.

I mean, Poland managed to repel thousands of Iraqis from the border using non-lethal violence, and Texas is claiming to be doing the same thing.

On the other hand, Poland wasn’t running a campaign of bussing migrants that did make it across to major cities in Germany.

Also, it’s Poland. Big downside, by comparison.

As my Polish AF buddies keep pointing out, Poland is on track to be wealthier than the UK within a decade or so

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats