site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 1, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

9
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Nutrition isn’t a serious barrier, so what’s your excuse?

You're taking a lot of flack, so let me give you a somewhat sympathetic response.

I am not a vegan, or even a vegetarian, but I have close friends and family members who are, so I respect the lifestyle and don't have any disdain for those who are committed to it.

That said, that closing line alone probably killed a lot of sympathy you might have gotten, because it smacks of the stereotypical self-righteous vegan demanding that non-vegans justify their failure to live up to vegan principles. No, sorry, you have to sell it, they don't have to justify not being sold yet.

Speaking for myself, I'll skip past the snarky "bacon is delicious" comments and say that I do in fact have moral qualms about eating creatures who might be sapient or near-sapient, and I think factory farming is pretty bad. That said, vegans and vegetarians talking about how environmentally awful meat consumption is often exaggerate or elide a lot of facts. The benefits of vegetarianism are even more over-hyped, and I say that as someone who actually likes vegetables and agrees that most people should eat more of them.

Since I don't believe you'd be okay with eating meat if we had a carbon neutral meat industry, we're left with you selling what is essentially a moral, if not religious, conviction. I'll hear you out, but imagine how "Here's why Jesus is Lord, so what's your excuse for not being saved?" would go over.

My fundamental allergy to veganism is its quasi religious nature.

I’m a materialist atheist, a universal Darwinist, a naturalist. I also used to be quite religious, so I find none of these arguments compelling and instantly hear them echoed in tenor by old apologist screeds that were often cloaked in appropriated scientific language that veers wildly from data dumping to naked moralizing.

I feel the same about anarchism, pacifism, deep ecology. They all seem part of the same coalition of beliefs that radically decontextualizes some sordid or sad aspect of existence and then when it is isolated, attempts to argue that it can be erased. I remain unconvinced.