This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The idea here is that there are some things that are outside even a parent’s right to choose (eg blood infusion and Jehovah witness cases). It might be true that transitioning (ie eliminating sexual function) are so fundamental to a person that their parent cannot consent for them to eliminate such things.
That usually is the argument made- that medical transitioning is a form of mutilation that can’t be consented to, so it nullifies the parent’s rights to make medical decisions for their kids. Parents rights are more of an argument about social transitions.
Those things aren’t about parents or the trans kids; they are about all the other kids.
It is one thing to allow a boy to pretend to be a girl. It is another thing to allow a boy into a girl’s locker room with a swinging dick and naked girls.
Ditto with sports, specifically female sports.
I think if you are framing those issues in terms of how it affects the trans person you are missing the reason behind the red state bans; it is about the effect on the non-trans person (typically girls). I guess stopping social transition is icing on the cake.
More options
Context Copy link
Because those decisions are seen as so intrinsically damaging to the child that the decision to proceed should not be allowed at all. We take the same approach (correctly, IMO) with respect to the question of whether the child should be permitted to have sex with adults. We can disagree at the object level (i.e. whether in fact social transitions are damaging to the child), but if one accepts those states' belief at the object level for the sake of argument, then there is nothing anomalous about their policymaking approach to the matter.
Some red states believe that social transition is a question that should be left to the parents. Others believe that it should be forbidden. Blue states seem to adopt the mirror image of the latter view, that it should be required (for children who demand it) without the parents' approval. The second and third groups of states would seem not to care much for parental rights on this topic. The first does. That seems to be the lay of the land. I'm not sure how it would improve one's understanding to insist that any particular argument is "complete bullshit," unless you believe that it is somehow illegitimate for different states to adopt different policies.
More options
Context Copy link
Yes, it is bullshit. We are not in ancient Rome any more, parental rights have not been absolute for a long time.
Parents are, for example, not allowed to deny their children necessary health care.
Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children before they have reached the age of full and legal discretion when they can make that choice for themselves.
Court Says Ill Child's Interests Outweigh Religion
The debate is not about parental rights. If you make it about parental rights, you lose, because this cause - absolute power of parents over their children - was settled long ago.
The debate is about gender affirming health care.
Is it medically necessary lifesaving treatment, or not?
And if it is not necessary for children, is it necessary for adults?
We do not live in libertarian world where every adult is sovereign over his body, and will not in the foreseable future, and these decisions are political decisions.
Doctors will not replace your eye with glass one, your leg with wooden one and your hand with hook, not matter how how strongly you self identify as pirate, because pirate affirming health care is not recognized as legitimate medical procedure.
Why? Because transpiratical community is oppressed and persecuted, because transpiratism is not recognized as valid, because there is no respectable billionaire mafia family supporting transpirate rights. Sad.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It seems reasonable that transitioning is so extreme that at a minimum parents should need to be on board. It could be reasonable to say that even if parents consent the process is too extreme and therefore State A won’t permit it. That is, there are three potential states:
Transition solely based on kids decision
Kid and parent decision
Not permitted for kids
These states go from most permissive to least permissive. While I favor 3, it also means I favor 2 to 1. Therefore I can object to the Minnesota law on parental rights ground not withstanding that I generally would support 3.
Yes and no. One can see transition is inherently bad and therefore what ever argument prevents transition is great.
But (and here is the key) one can generally believe in parents right with setting limits on them. Thus, there is nothing inherently wrong with respecting that a parent can give religious instruction (and indeed force certain religious mores) into kids, while saying it can go to far (eg rejecting life saving blood transfusion). That is, there are limits we can put on our parental rights when it goes too far.
So states that ban physical transition aren’t saying “we don’t like parental rights.” Instead, they are saying “there are limits to parental rights” as parents are acting as a fiduciary for their kids. Different states (another competing value) may have a different view on what constitutes the appropriate limitation on that fiduciary duty. But it isn’t inherently contradictory to claim Minnesota is rejecting parental rights (when they allow minors to evade parental control) while at the same time championing laws to limit the authority the fiduciary can exercise in one direction.
Seems like it all depends on the baseline.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link