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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   33534 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 24, 2023

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No, I don't make any argument as to why someone did what they did. I just note that they did what they did whilst being who they are. Like I said before: You don't need to import any socialized 'logic' into this. She, the jewish feminist, wrote the part of the Japanese constitution that pertains to 'women's rights'.

I don't need a theory of 'why' to notice when a jew does something. She is a jew. She did what she did. The statement is true. Your problem here is obviously not with noticing people doing things and applying a group label to their decision, as can be seen with the 'Americans nuked Japan' bit which you take no issue with. You are only here because of the fact she is jewish and her actions were grouped into the 'jews' label. I am being consistent, you are not.

I just note that they did what they did whilst being who they are.

This is tautological.

She, the jewish feminist, wrote the part of the Japanese constitution that pertains to 'women's rights'.

Okay. But you're clearly saying that being Jewish was in some way important. I can see how being a feminist would be significant. I can see how being an American would be significant. If you want to claim that being Jewish is significant - implying that either a non-Jewish American feminist would have done something different, or only a Jew would have been in that role to begin with - well, you keep doing this thing where you hint something about Da Joos and then squirm around when I try to pin you down on what exactly Da Joos have to do with it.

I don't need a theory of 'why' to notice when a jew does something. She is a jew. She did what she did. The statement is true.

Again, tautological.

Your problem here is obviously not with noticing people doing things and applying a group label to their decision, as can be seen with the 'Americans nuked Japan' bit which you take no issue with.

Yes, Americans nuked Japan. And? Aside from a lengthier discourse on how the war happened and how it concluded that way, what inferences do you think we should make about Americans nuking cities? Would another country have acted differently? Is there something about Americans in particular that made them more likely to build atomic bombs and then use them? Those are colorable arguments! But... what of it?

You are only here because of the fact she is jewish and her actions were grouped into the 'jews' label. I am being consistent, you are not.

You are not only not being consistent, you're not even being coherent.

This is tautological.

This is stupid.

Okay. But you're clearly saying that being Jewish was in some way important. I can see how being a feminist would be significant. I can see how being an American would be significant. If you want to claim that being Jewish is significant - implying that either a non-Jewish American feminist would have done something different, or only a Jew would have been in that role to begin with - well, you keep doing this thing where you hint something about Da Joos and then squirm around when I try to pin you down on what exactly Da Joos have to do with it.

Consistency with regards to categories does not depend on what you personally think is significant or not. Jews as a category exist just as much as any other group category.

Yes, Americans nuked Japan. And? Aside from a lengthier discourse on how the war happened and how it concluded that way, what inferences do you think we should make about Americans nuking cities? Would another country have acted differently? Is there something about Americans in particular that made them more likely to build atomic bombs and then use them? Those are colorable arguments! But... what of it?

Jews wrote the part of the Japanese constitution that pertains to 'womens rights', and?.

In a broader historical sense, when you take a look at the actions of 'Americans' as a whole, you can freely form an opinion on the history or 'net effect' America has had. Some come away seeing America as the greatest country in the world. Others come away calling it the great Satan. The important part here is that because 'America' can exist as a category, you can apply a broad opinion to it. Good or bad, America exists.

The same is, like you are demonstrating, not true for the broad category of 'jews'. When opinions on jews come from philosemites who want to heap praise on 'the jews', the category is seen as valid, or when jews themselves want to congratulate themselves for being what they are. They don't pretend there exists a distinction between being jewish and jews doing something. They just say outright that the jewish people are great by dint of the great actions and achievements of individual jews. It's only when someone described jews in a less than flattering light or characterizes an action taken by a jew negatively that this sort of category nihilism and special pleading come into play. As you have artfully demonstrated.

In a broader historical sense, when you take a look at the actions of 'Americans' as a whole, you can freely form an opinion on the history or 'net effect' America has had. Some come away seeing America as the greatest country in the world. Others come away calling it the great Satan. The important part here is that because 'America' can exist as a category, you can apply a broad opinion to it. Good or bad, America exists.

So, you want to debate whether "The Jews" as a whole, sum of all things every Jew ever did in all of recorded history, were on the net good or bad for all mankind.

Fine, let's go ahead.

Assuming you see saving human lives from premature death by hunger and disease as good:

Only from this top ten list of the greatest effective altruists who ever lived:

(((Fritz Haber))) of Haber–Bosch process.

2,300 million lives saved

(((Karl Landsteiner))) and (((Richard Lewisohn))), invention of practical blood transfusion.

2,200 million lives saved

(((Ernst Chain))) penicillin.

203 million lives saved

Even if you put blame on all premature deaths caused by monotheism and communism on (((them))), it is just tiny blip compared to these numbers alone.

Give thanks to your saviors and salute them every day.

So, you want to debate whether "The Jews" as a whole, sum of all things every Jew ever did in all of recorded history, were on the net good or bad for all mankind.

No thank you. But your presence here is very helpful in illustrating just how easily people go from pretending jews don't exist in the negative to praising them for things they didn't even do in the positive. Maybe take a moment to think just how little bad a person could say of jews if all they ever did was good. Even if of all the good things they do only half is true. As a cursory glance at any of the history of the topics you raised can show.

No thank you. But your presence here is very helpful in illustrating just how easily people go from pretending jews don't exist in the negative to praising them for things they didn't even do in the positive. Maybe take a moment to think just how little bad a person could say of jews if all they ever did was good.

In the normie world yes, but this forum was never afraid of calling (((them))) in the slightest.

My point was, even if we accept that Jews and Jews alone are to blame for what are they most often blamed by people who are not fond of (((them))), inventing mass murdering totalitarian doctrines of communism and monotheism, their total tally (for people who insist on making such "tallies" of whole nations and ethnic groups) is highly positive.

Your argument fell flat because your original example of Jewish misdeed that started this exchange, stopping Japanese runaway population growth is something that would be seen by any reasonable person as good thing.

Every exponentional growth has to end some day (unless your vision of paradise is sphere of Japanese flesh expanding at the speed of light).

Even if of all the good things they do only half is true. As a cursory glance at any of the history of the topics you raised can show.

So, achievements I listed in my post are stolen from gentiles or complete fake? Tell me more.

In the normie world yes, but this forum was never afraid of calling (((them))) in the slightest.

No I'm talking about the point of contention in this thread specifically. I said that people pretend jews don't exist as a group when there is a negative implication in play. And that they play deconstructive games of nihilism instead. Which is never done when the association being made is positive, like you illustrated.

My point was, even if we accept that Jews and Jews alone are to blame for what are they most often blamed by people who are not fond of (((them))), inventing mass murdering totalitarian doctrines of communism and monotheism, their total tally (for people who insist on making such "tallies" of whole nations and ethnic groups) is highly positive.

Which is the only form of discourse surrounding 'jews' that is even remotely acceptable. Your point is a step behind the conversation.

Your argument fell flat because your original example of Jewish misdeed that started this exchange, stopping Japanese runaway population growth is something that would be seen by any reasonable person as good thing.

I mean, to make a long argument short and to skip over a bunch of nuane, population control needs to be a controlled demolition, not a natural disaster. It also needs to be universal. What is happening in Japan is a travesty on multiple fronts and does little to nothing to address the problem of overpopulation.

So, achievements I listed in my post are stolen from gentiles or complete fake? Tell me more.

Some are, like a quick read on the history of Penicillin would tell you. Out of the 4 or 5 big players in that story there is only one jew. To put in perspective how silly your position is, it would be like me saying the post-war cultural revolution in Japan was entirely jewish. I'm not really sure if I should accept this as genuine. I mean, do I need to explain the importance of the legwork already put in place by gentiles that facilitated every single 'achievement' you link? All the co-authors and members of the various teams that worked on these problems?

But, again, this position of yours is at best supplementary to the point I was making. Jews would sooner take credit for things that make them look good even when they don't own all the credit, than they would own up to something negative they are solely or primarily responsible for.

Some are, like a quick read on the history of Penicillin would tell you. Out of the 4 or 5 big players in that story there is only one jew. To put in perspective how silly your position is, it would be like me saying the post-war cultural revolution in Japan was entirely jewish.

You did it, you called it a bad result of Jewish-American occupation of Japan. Not Anglo-German-Irish-Scandinavian-French-Italian-Black-Mexican-Slavic-Jewish-American occupation (no idea about precise ethnic composition of US forces in Japan at the time).

I'm not really sure if I should accept this as genuine. I mean, do I need to explain the importance of the legwork already put in place by gentiles that facilitated every single 'achievement' you link? All the co-authors and members of the various teams that worked on these problems?

Exactly, and the same thing is true about all bad things "The Jews" are usually blamed for.

Communism, for example, was invented by Gentile, spread and developed by many Gentile thinkers and embraced by masses of Gentiles worldwide, even in places where never were any Jews.

If it was not the case, if Jews and Jews alone were really responsible for all good and bad things that ever happened, it would mean that good rabbi Yosef is right and gentiles are nothing than herd of hopeless cattle.

An analogous example would be if I called it only a jewish imposed cultural revolution. But I didn't. I spread credit where it was due. Unlike what you did in your examples on jewish achievements. This error is also present in the final paragraph of your reply.

Exactly, and the same thing is true about all bad things "The Jews" are usually blamed for.

What? So there are no great or influential jews, good or bad, just because the ones you named in support of your hyperbolic superhero-esque view on jews didn't invent or discover stuff in a vacuum on their lonesome? That seems rather silly to me.

Just like you claim the inventor of something bad was a 'gentile' I contend that I should be able to do the same if the person in question was a jew. I don't stand on the ground that no man can claim that an American, Frenchman, Scot or whatever else did something bad.

Yet whenever I make a claim that insinuates that jews did something bad, even when it is wrapped up in a claim that Americans also did the same bad thing, I get people weaving these transparent logic pretzels just so they can try to squeeze in an argument against an inconvenient fact that places their ingroup in an unfavorable light.

This is stupid.

I am asking you how someone's Jewishness informs an analysis of their historical role. You replied "I just note that they did what they did whilst being who they are."

If you find it "stupid" to note that this is tautological, well, we're at an impasse where we both think the other person is talking nonsense.

I mean: "Jews as a category exist just as much as any other group category."

Again: yes, and? What is this supposed to say? Who is arguing that Jews don't exist as a category?

In a broader historical sense, when you take a look at the actions of 'Americans' as a whole, you can freely form an opinion on the history or 'net effect' America has had. Some come away seeing America as the greatest country in the world. Others come away calling it the great Satan. The important part here is that because 'America' can exist as a category, you can apply a broad opinion to it. Good or bad, America exists.

The same is, like you are demonstrating, not true for the broad category of 'jews'.

Okay, finally we're getting somewhere. America is a coherent polity that does things for American reasons. You are arguing that Judaism is a similar polity. I agree, so far as that goes. But no one person is an avatar of a polity, or a member of a single category. American Jewish feminists do things motivated by their American-ness, their Jewish-ness, their feminism. Good so far? So sure, I'd expect Sirota's Jewishness to have some impact on her worldview, just as being an American or a feminist does.

But you appear seem to be treating her (and other Jews) as Jewish only. Whatever they do, they do for Jewish reasons. Their motivations are Jewish. Their goals are whatever the goals of Worldwide Jewry might be (which, according to your previous writings on the topic, we can infer are nefarious and inimical to non-Jews).

Rarely does someone say "she did that because that's what Americans do and she's carrying out the will of America, as Americans do." Nor "Christian" or "white" or "black" or even "Chinese", though there is certainly some of that. "Feminist," maybe, enough people do seem to think feminism is also a Borg-hive.

As you have artfully demonstrated.

I am being rational, my friend. The artistry is in your trying so very hard to make Da Joos a conspiratorial enemy while avoiding saying this is in so many words.

I don't need to explain how someones group informs their action to point at the fact they belong to a group and that they did something. I can just look at the behavior and call out whatever it is they did. I am not saying this as a matter of personal opinion. I am saying this as a matter of fact relating to how people in general interact with group categories. I am also pointing out that it is only in the case of jews that people like you start piping up at this. It's not a surprise, since it is generally how people react when their ingroup gets implicated in any negative appearing act. But it's tiresome to have to play a game of pinning the tail on the donkey every single time someone jewish does something, where, for some reason in the case of jews, people want to pretend the donkey just doesn't exist whenever the tail isn't flattering.

Again: yes, and? What is this supposed to say? Who is arguing that Jews don't exist as a category?

What do you mean yes and? If pointing out the fact isn't a problem why are you here? Because your socialization kicked in when you read something that could be inferred to cast jews in a negative light? Seen that once or twice.

Okay, finally we're getting somewhere. America is a coherent polity that does things for American reasons.

I didn't say that. Again, you are talking about why someone did X. I am not. I am just saying who did X and what group they belong to. I don't need to argue for or against any emerging opinion a person might have from learning about the actions of individuals who belong to a group. I can just point them out and leave them there. If people like 'womens rights' they can draw positive conclusions about jews like Beate. If people don't like 'womens rights' they can do something else. I didn't demand people group up in the way they do.

But you appear seem to be treating her (and other Jews) as Jewish only.

And the 'Americans' nuked Japan. Are we sure Truman wasn't just a Protestant? How many from the FDR 'brain trust' were Northerners? That's a little bit of sarcasm, of course. I'm not entertaining this tactical nihilism, which I alluded to in a prior comment. Jews can take all the credit for all their Nobel prizes as jews and nothing else. They can muse about their high IQ in universities and proclaim to be gods chosen people in synagogues. Yet here, somehow, they can't take the heat for an act they, in other contexts, pat themselves on the back for. This line of argument you are running with is entirely transparent.

I am also pointing out that it is only in the case of jews that people like you start piping up at this.

No, I pipe up whenever someone goes off on similar rants about Jews/blacks/whites/Chinese/Americans/Muslims/Christians/women/Republicans/leftists/etc. etc.

It's just that people like you pipe up most often about Jews. We get a ton of polemics here about Da Joos, quite a few about women, much fewer about blacks and Chinese and Muslims, and very rarely about whites and Christians and Republicans.

It's not a surprise, since it is generally how people react when their ingroup gets implicated in any negative appearing act.

I'm not Jewish, if that's what you're implying, though it shouldn't matter if I was (other than that I'm sure it would validate all your deepest, darkest suspicions).

No, I pipe up whenever someone goes off on similar rants about Jews/blacks/whites/Chinese/Americans/Muslims/Christians/women/Republicans/leftists/etc. etc.

That's true enough. My prior statement is poorly worded.

I didn't take you for a jew nor do I generally assume the people I'm talking to are jewish. I just think you ingroup them.

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