site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   33461 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 24, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don't usually discuss intellectual property outside of libertarian circles because the starting points are usually two divergent to have a productive conversation. Intellectual property is like debates on abortions personal vs private property cutting to the very core of morality. As will quickly be noted intellectual property is just a social construct which will then be countered with property is just a construct. Then why does the construct of property even exist? To paraphrase Hoppe, original appropriation and private property are a solution to the problem of social order; a way of resolving and avoiding conflict. Why does conflict around property arise? Because stuff is scarce and rivalrous. If stuff was not scarce and rivalrous then why would why would there be disputes, why would the concept of property be needed?

As this video was used to point out how small of chunks of a songs pattern constitute an IP claim? You keep getting smaller and smaller until you're at basic sounds. I'm not a musician so my terms are going to probably be wrong, but in the same vein how much can one alter the pitch, tone, or even volume before you have created a unique enough pattern? The over arching questions: what is the level of uniqueness to gain and/or avoid an IP claim?

The sorites paradox isn't absent for physical property but it is much less. In the vast majority of cases physical property can be defined, boundaries can be set up, literal lines can be drawn. I'm not sure how that's possible with IP. IP dictates what other people can do with their property even if they have had claim to that property longer than the IP claim has existed - how people can combine atoms and organize 1's and 0's.

Then there's the utilitarian argument but I have not idea how you measure the gains vs the losses.

I suspect that IP does not really meet the requirements of "scarce and rivalrous." Or at least, duplication of information is obviously the exact opposite of scarcity and rivalry.

In fact, IP tends to be used more from the utilitarian side that you hint at, i.e., IP in practice is (in theory) a right to compensation for work. Information itself is not necessarily scarce and rivalrous, but mindshare arguably is, and your ability to extract moneydollars as your IP is spread to mindspace is a matter of conflict. We might think of this as the symbol-manipulation equivalent of the appliance industry running out of potential customers to sell TVs to.

Trademarks are rivalrous; I can build public trust in "True Juices"-brand product quality only if I and they can be sure that it's unlikely for a "True Juices" bottle on a shelf to actually be someone else's food-coloring-and-corn-syrup knockoff. I think even the most anti-IP libertarian would be happy with me asserting 'ownership' of the ability to label something "from the 'True Juices' brand created by @roystgnr on 2023-04-26", just as a subset of fraud, and the only disagreement would be how much and with what restrictions I can contract that awkward phrase into something short and memorable.

Copyright and patents are interesting, because "copies of an existing IP" aren't scarce at all, but "copies of a not-yet-created IP that many people will prefer to anything existing" are incredibly scarce and valuable. For anything being created you can say "look, it's not scarce afterward!", just like Parfit's Hitchhiker can eventually say "well what's the point of paying you now?", but even the worst decision theories know to pay the driver in an indefinitely iterated scenario...

From: The Problem with “Fraud”: Fraud, Threat, and Contract Breach as Types of Aggression https://archive.is/qz0b8

I tried to to explain what fraud is, if it is to be considered a species of aggression (and to briefly debunk Child), in A Theory of Contracts (p. 34). As I wrote there,

The theory of contract espoused here demonstrates that fraud is properly viewed as a type of theft. Suppose Karen buys a bucket of apples from Ethan for $20. Ethan represents the things in the bucket as being apples, in fact, as apples of a certain nature, that is, as being fit for their normal purpose of being eaten. Karen conditions the transfer of title to her $20 on Ethan’s not knowingly engaging in ‘fraudulent’ activities, like pawning off rotten apples. If the apples are indeed rotten and Ethan knows this, then he knows that he does not receive ownership of or permission to use the $20, because the condition ‘no fraud’ is not satisfied. He is knowingly in possession of Karen’s $20 without her consent, and is, therefore, a thief.

In other words, for the libertarian, fraud is a type of aggression (namely, theft), just because it is a means by which one party receives or uses or takes the property of someone else without their consent–and there is failure of consent because the first party’s misrepresentation meant that one of the conditions to transfer of title was not satisfied. (I have elaborated on this in various articles and posts: see, e.g.: Reply to Van Dun: Non-Aggression and Title Transfer, pp. 60-61, where I tried to explain how a coherent theory of contract and fraud does, in fact, support a type of fraud claim compatible with the non-aggression principle; my exchange with David Heinrich in Comments: debt and the trade against risk; my comments in Objectivists on IP; my exchange with Heinrich regarding “limited liability” and corporations in this thread (2); my exchange, again, w/ Heinrich, regarding fractional reserve banking, in the comments section of Randians go from Mises to supply-side economics)

Looking at fraud this way, it is clear that for there to be fraud–at least of the type that counts as aggression–there must be some victim who did not give genuine consent for the defrauder to use or take his property. There must be a victim of the fraud, and the victimization must be of a type in which there is an ostensible title transfer but which fails because of lack of true consent.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats