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Do we have a compelling moral obligation to make our dogs a little fat from their favorite treats?
A dog’s sense of smell and taste are a thousand times greater than our own, and thus so is their enjoyment.
Dogs live in sensory deprived conditions relative to their exposure to scents and tastes in the wild.
When left to their own devices, dogs and their owners routinely choose tasty treats. Men with infinite resources in history usually became fat, and exercise for the sake of health improvement is an historic anomaly among the upper classes.
It follows that the happiness increase that a dog receives from perfect cardiovascular health probably does not exceed the happiness increase received from tasty treats, given how much we can assume they value these treats. The extremes of both end are deleterious to canine fulfillment, but we can probably say that a dog is most happy if made a little fat from treats.
Humans have only recently begun to value perfect health, and in all previous eras were quite happy with drinking (or smoking) and lounging if they could get away with it. The wealthiest kings with the smartest advisors loved their liquors and candies. The ancient Chinese figure of contentment and joy was Budai, a happy Buddhist figure with a large figure. The Romans considered mead the drink of the gods, the Muslim conception of Heaven entails rivers running with sweet wine, and the Christians conceive of a heavenly banquet in the afterlife.
There’s something telling about us, that we think canine felicity lies in austerity. Maybe we are imbuing dogs with our own notions of social competition. We know that we would be more attractive if we looked like Chris Pratt (not in Super Mario Bros), and we know that this entails attractive social rewards like a hotter partner and superiority over peers. Yet we struggle with this, choosing other enjoyments instead. In our shame, we make our dogs ascetic warrior monks: only the driest of foods, only water, exercise once a day at the least. Is this for our dog, or is it for us? Do you look at other dog owners with a sense of superiority that their genetically unfit fat pug is no match for our slim athletic German Shepherd?
There is one alluring argument for not giving our dogs tasty treats, and this is that they live longer. But this is an illusion. Food-motivated beasts don’t care about total sum days of mortal life. They care about chasing potential foods and eating tasty foods. They care about smelling a lot of good smells, especially of things that taste good. Their food motivation is so intense that it’s the only way to motivate them in training absent painful punishment. No rational being should consider three extra years of limited joy superior to one year of great joy. No human values “mere days alive” in hospital beds and prisons or in states of depression, and humans generally consider times of low pleasure to be write-offs. But this is how we apparently see the life our canine friends!
fatter dogs are probably less aggressive too, so fewer worries about biting strangers or other dogs.
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I feel like the main difference with this to the modern era is that growing fat on amply available tasty foodstuffs used to be an actual accomplishment/indicative of wealth and resources. You'd need the wealth to acquire the good stuff plus avoiding actual hard labor required resources and skill. These days the default state is prettymuch obesity so now fitness is a hard-to-acquire virtue.
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This is actually a really interesting question that sounds superficial. Because what is “best” for humans, and how do we know that, and can we possibly map that to animals?
In particular…Labrador Retrievers. They have a mutation that really, really, really makes ’em hungry chonkers. But does that mean they “want” to eat? Do they desire it? Does it make them fulfilled, whatever that means for a dog, or does that just make them not starving?
And, is it “best” for them to get a lil’ fat? Even if their blood calls out for it, they also want to fetch and fetch and fetch, which is hard when the pounds are packed on, especially when it’s hot outside. And, they are extremely prone to hip dysplasia, which extra body fatness can make far worse.
I don’t particularly have answers. But it is fun to consider.
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When I think about the times in my life I have been happiest, it isn't when I've eaten the most tasty food and drank the most alcohol. It's more like a combination of seeing my friends regularly, sunny weather and a general feeling that my life was going in a good direction. Pure sensory pleasure doesn't seem to have any lasting effect on happiness.
I imagine a dog's happiness would be based on exercise, socialising with other dogs and people, learning and being outdoors more than food reward.
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I don't think this follows. Enjoyment and sensitivity are different things, and I don't see any reason why they'd need to have such tight correlation. If you're just comparing between humans, you might be able to argue that someone with greater sensitivity to taste has the potential to enjoy tasting food more, but only in potential, and only with low confidence, and only because we're comparing somewhat similar brains. A dog's brain isn't wildly different from our own, but certainly it's much more different than between 2 humans, making the correlation even more tenuous. There are factors other than sensitivity at play here when dealing with the qualia we call "enjoyment," and those (rather difficult-to-measure) factors could easily be more dominant.
I think it follows, because enjoyments appear to increase from increased sensitivity (ability to discern and contrast, let’s say) in relation to the object of experience for every category I can imagine. The enjoyment of a soft blanket is reduced from calloused or numb hands. Someone who has trained their sense of taste can generally recognize more flavors and thus enjoy more. Someone who is familiar with different wines can enjoy a good wine more. Someone who can hardly hear will not enjoy bird sounds as much as someone who can hear every nuance of them. It’s actually hard to think of any enjoyment that isn’t increased from increased ability to discern, compare, and understand the object(s). This is what the whole idea of being a connoisseur is about. I can certainly appreciate music more on better headphones, and certainly appreciate it more with the more sensitivity I’ve gained from listening/understanding pieces. When Covid reduced people’s ability to discern flavors, it reduced people’s enjoyments. When people with poor eyesight get glasses, they usually note that they can enjoy what they see more. So I think this is a fine assumption for me to make but I’m open to examples of where the correlation fails.
I don't think any of this is true. I think someone who is familiar with different wines can convince themselves that they enjoy a good wine more than a layman who isn't. They might be able to appreciate certain specific aspects of the wine than a layman without a refined palette, but whether or not they actually enjoy it more is an open question. Similarly, someone who can hear every nuance of a bird song might be able to appreciate certain aspects of it more than someone who's nearly deaf and can only hear some dull muffled noises, but whether or not they get actual greater enjoyment out of it is an open question. Enjoyment and appreciation aren't the same things.
It's also impossible to generalize from individuals comparing the enjoyment from 2 different states of sensitivity, because that's vastly different from comparing enjoyment of 2 different entities. I might enjoy the same song more when I hear it through clear headphones instead of through a muffled speaker in another room, but all that tells me is that I enjoy that music more with increased sensitivity. Someone else could just as easily get far greater enjoyment out of the percussive music of 2 random rocks being struck together as I do from listening to Beethoven's 5th symphony through high-end headphones. Someone else could just as easily get far greater enjoyment out of some grilled roadkill as I do from a finely prepared and seasoned steak from a fancy restaurant. Connoisseurs might have more dimensions to appreciate certain aspects of whatever they're enjoying, and that might give them the language and excuse to convince themselves that they enjoy it more, but that doesn't mean that they actually do enjoy it more.
I think this is stretching relativism a little too much. A person who prefers listening to a low quality version of a song over a high quality version is someone who is odd, or interested in it for non-musical reasons like nostalgia. The vast majority of people prefer high fidelity music (that they can perceive). Sites like YouTube and phones like the iPhone make the default audio card high quality because so many people enjoy this. Similarly, only a very rare person enjoys watching videos on 480p, or collecting lo-res images.
There really seems to be a clear association between greater sensitivity/detail/perception (whichever word we want to use, they refer to the same cognitive antecedents) and increased enjoyment. Why go see a symphony in person if the experience is not greater? Why bother with greater graphics?
Is it really open? What bird song enjoyer would not desire to hear bird songs in maximum fidelity? It’s considered a tragedy when bird song enjoyers have reduced hearing sensitivity
You're comparing the difference within an individual and the difference between individuals in terms of enjoyment from different fidelity. Different individuals have intrinsically subjective experience of what they enjoy, and this difference is even more pronounced when comparing different species. The leap in how a dog's taste sensations translate to the dog's experience of "enjoyment" is something that's not really understood, even worse than how the leap exists in humans. So positing a sort of straight-up relationship between the higher sensitivity to higher enjoyment (or potential for such) isn't justified.
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To a point, sure. But too much sensitivity can lead to something pleasurable becoming painful. I think that @07mk is right, and it's an oversimplification to say that more sensitive = more pleasure.
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Why not give your dog treats and also take them for runs? Many breeds seem to enjoy running just fine anyway and some proper exercise allows them to enjoy tasty snacks without unhealthy weight gain.
Of course, this is the exact same advice I'd give to humans. I just ate some Girl Scout cookies. They're delicious, but not very healthy. I'm also about to walk out the door and run about 20-25 kilometers depending on mood, so spiking my system with some sugar ain't so bad. The same would be true for a four-legged friend as a two-legged one.
Of course dogs should go on runs and play catch, as this is an enjoyment. But even after going on runs and playing catch (which I doubt the median dog owner is doing daily, maybe 1-2x a week), we still have the question of choosing tasty food or optimal fitness. If I give you a small bite of steak, you aren’t satisfied and would prefer more steak. We’re ultimately left with the same question: should we give our favorite beasts (who are 1000x more sensitive to food-related pleasure remember) more of the tasty food that they desire? Or do we choose extending life? If the simple state of being overweight is so deplorable, why did so many of history’s most privileged monarchs become fat, and did not exercise for primarily health-related reasons?
Yeah, I think the median owner is a bad owner. Presumably we're discussing how to be a good owner. Dogs enjoy daily runs and play.
Because we evolved in a much different environment than the current one and that's done nothing but become more exaggerated in recent years. Gluttonous eating is viscerally satisfying for good evolutionary reasons, but has bad results when it's feasible to just keep doing it every day.
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I don't think anyone thinks this. Rather, we just make better decisions for our pets than we do for ourselves (much like parents will make better decisions for a child than they might for their own health). It's just easier to do the right thing when you don't personally feel the pain of it.
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If your dog spends 23 hours doing nothing and then has to eat boring food it is miserable. I don't think the treats are the issue, the issue is that dogs are supposed to engage in long distance hunting. After being out playing, running, chasing things and exploring nature there is no issue giving dogs treats. Treats should be rewards for achievement. When the wolf gets the moose he gets to stuff himself. When the dog has done well he should get to eat.
A few short walks on a leash don't satisfy dogs and don't keep them healthy either.
As for health, healthy dogs are happier. They can move better, have less pain and can enjoy life more.
Once again, this is the same story for humans. I have seen obese people argue that they gain so much joy from eating that it's worth it to them on balance. I think they're deceiving themselves and have lost the ability to appreciate how much better their lives would be if they could move comfortably, climb stairs without huffing and puffing, go for bike rides with friends, and so on.
I mean, yeah of course it's true for humans. I'm not under any illusion (nor are most obese people) that I'm happier at my current weight. I would be a lot happier if I lost weight. My failing is one of discipline and willpower, not one of being too foolish to understand that I'm worse off as I am.
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