This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
HENRICH's MIRRORS, KENYANS and invincible ignorance
Joseph Henrich, the Harvard professor of evolutionary biology who coined the term WIERD to describe Westerners, and wrote the book on the cultural differences between us and them recently went on Hanania's podcast where he insisted that the Kenyan advantage in running records was... purely a matter of cultural psychology. Having introduced the bizzare lengths to which knowledgeable Academics will go to lie about the most obvious things; and knowing that these taboos have been the sacred in the West for so long, I'd like to propose the possibility that even committed HBDers have only scratched the surface of how far biological differences may go.
With that in mind, let's consider the matter of Kenyan children and mirrors. What matter you may ask? Well, one that might prompt the following, again from Heinrich, et al.
You read that right, standard self recognition testing does not detect self recognition in Kenyan children, a whole three years after it does so in European toddlers, and who knows how much longer.
https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross-Cultural%20Psychology-2010-Broesch-%20Cultural%20Variations%20in%20Children's%20Mirror%20Self-Recognition.pdf
Now, you'll have noticed that a 5 years of age, even dumb children can be asked questions. Yet for some reason, the study in question shows no sign that these children were ever asked anything about what they saw. In fact the study makers decided to go for another round elsewhere, and leave it at that. Thousands of psychologists are aware of this study, it was even published in Scientific American, and yet no one has publically tried to run it again. If there is even the slightest possibility that this means what It might mean, we are talking about the most important replication attempt in modern history, and it's not even close.
If put on tape, this is the final shot in the HBD wars, and one which even the normiest normie can understand. Any takers? My own prediction is 20% non-recognition, 30% fraud, 20% innate psychological differences in responding to mirrors, and 30% abusive parenting.
It’s worth noting Heinrich has a working explanation of why non-westerners would have a harder time recognizing themselves in a mirror for cultural reasons. His unwillingness to engage with HBD is frustrating and probably undermines his point, though.
Yes, but his behaviour and that of the general scientific community towards the issue; is to put it least aggressively, remarkably incurious in a way that suggests censorship either direct, or of the cathedral kind. I have a pretty low opinion of Academics, but even I don't think they are incapable of realizing that even dumb 5 - 6 year olds can understand basic questions. And I don't think they are nearly incurious enough to simply drop research into something as salient as mirror self recognition.
There's something big here.
I agree that the broader academic community has political correctness based reasons to avoid investigating HBD, but Heinrich in particular doesn’t talk about it because he wants to point all evidence towards his grand theory of everything about western/non western social structures.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
This makes me wonder what the state of the art of feminist biology is these days. Once upon a time I got into an argument with a radical feminist who claimed all the observable strength differences between men and women were due to the sexist dietary restrictions women were raised with. That women were starved of the calories and nutrician they'd need to become as naturally strong as they should and could be, which was equally as strong as men.
Even more terrifying was the forum audience that assessed this argument credulously, and thought she was making good points.
Of course, this was a pre-trans explosion argument. I'm not sure what the primacy of trans people in this argument space does. Does it in any way disprove it? Or do you go the ultimate smooth brained route and declare that the existence of trans-women that are just as strong as men proves you are correct?
What was the nature of the forum audience and when was this (If you can be slightly specific without doxxing yourself of course, if not be as vague as you need to be or PM me)?
It was probably 10+ years ago on Penny Arcade.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't his name Joseph Henrich?
lol, you are right. Talk about a name mixup.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Just another instance of what I call "propaganda for the future". There just exists too much scientific evidence right now explaining why certain groups are better at certain physical things, it's currently quite inconvenient for those who claim those differences don't apply above the neck when the below-neck differences are cited as a prior.
However, if enough "scientists" assert otherwise, it's only a matter of time before below-the-neck differences are memory-holed as well and you are a racist lunatic for looking at papers about why a certain subset of Kenyans whose ancestors lived in high-altitude areas are better long-distance runners.
He is laying the groundwork for the gaslighting that is about to come. This is independent of the sincerity of his beliefs or intentions.
Progressives have already gotchu, fam. Culture-based explanations to explain differences in athletic performance have been around for decades.
If blacks are disproportionately represented in the NFL and NBA, it’s due to systematic racism that prevents them from becoming doctors and engineers, thus leaving them with no choice but to pursue avenues like football and basketball. Certainly not related to them, on average, having higher leg-to-torso ratios or scoring higher on the Ape Index*, allowing them to run faster and reach farther. The NFL and NBA being disproportionately black is just further evidence that we need to transfer more wealth to and dedicate more opportunities and resources to blacks. However, if head coaches are disproportionately white compared to the players, it’s also due to systematic racism and A Problem that we need to address with affirmative action.
By keeping biological explanations for differences in athletic performance outisde of the Overton window, blank slatists can better keep the more controversial biological explanations for cognitive performance outside of the Overton window as well. Sailer labeled this type of tactic Outpost and Heartland, as a sister-concept to Motte and Bailey. Not only does evolution conveniently stop at the neck, it conveniently stops right below the skin. If some group of Kenyans are better at long distance running, it must be due to a legacy of colonization or something somehow.
The gaslighting will continue until morale improves.
*Wingspan to height ratio, of course. What did you think I meant?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
How many of these kids grew up around mirrors? It seems like an obvious issue— if a kid has never seen a mirror he can’t be expected to recognize himself in one.
According to the abstract, another study shows Bedouin children with no mirror access having basically the same recognition rate as Israeli children with mirror access.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I saw this recently on a video on animals that can/can't pass the mirror test. I think that animals interacting with mirrors are fascinating, because it's one of the ways that we can get some sense of their psychology, or at least be reminded by how different we are from them. One of my earlier approximately datable memories is looking into a mirror when I was 3 years old, so it's also something I can relate to my own experiences.
My bullshit alarm fired at full force, especially when the video glossed it as "Kenyans have more of a collective identity". What, as opposed to East Asians?
The video:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cKs_iW0QVNY
Huh, Chinese children mirror testing doesn’t seem to pull up much. Does anyone know at what age East Asians show self recognition in mirrors? Ideally looking for a study with Chinese or Koreans.
Hmm, I couldn't find anything either. I had just inferred that there was nothing to see there, given the focus on Kenyan children. However, I was assuming that they'd tested Chinese children, but from the abstract, the 2011 study apparently just tests Kenyan children, plus those from "Fiji, Saint Lucia, Grenada, and Peru... as well as children from urban United States and rural Canada."
So this literature looks even worse than I expected.
Also, I came across this part of the article: "In Fijian culture, for example, there is no “why” phrase that children can use"
I have a low prior in claims of deep linguistic differences between cultures. Sure enough, when I checked their references for that paragraph, they don't mention Fiji. (I might not be searching for the right words.) So this seems to be the sort of "There's an Amazonian tribe with no concept of time" bullshit that people hear at a conference and then repeat, often subtly distorting it.
I congratulate them on baking anti-teleology into their very language.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link