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This is incorrect. I absolutely respect their preferences, which is why I'm not in favor of, say delegalizing sex reassignment surgeries. They're the ones not respecting other people's preferences, since they want to impose their worldview on others.
You said they expect others to pander to their self-justified illusions.
calling them self-justified illusions is value-loaded language. When you use that language it communicates the message that their identities aren't real, that you don't think a cat-identifying person should be allowed to expect others to treat them the way they want to be treated.
I do think the culture war has become overly totaling in this regard. Not everyone should have to respect everyone.
But it's reasonable to expect those who want to be close to you to respect you. And it's reasonable to want and fight for a society that respects you enough to not disadvantage you in the competition of capitalism.
No it isn't. I want to be treated like an aristocratic nobleman (a core part of my identity is believing in my own inherent superiority over others), living a life of artistic patronage and luxury while others serve me. Do you think it is reasonable for me to "want and fight for a society that respects you enough to not disadvantage you in the competition of capitalism" in this context?
That's reasonable in the sense that I can empathize with you fighting for your dream.
But by 'not disadvantage you in the competition of capitalism' I mean something along the lines of engendering an equitable meritocracy with a central focus on interest groups you are part of.
Engendering an equitable meritocracy is the thing I think most people will find reasonable and empathize with on priors, given our world, and your scenario is its explicit inverse in a way I think most people will not find reasonable.
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That was someone else.
I agree with that, and I believe that does not imply I'm disrespecting their preferences. Your right to believe you're a cat ends at my right to not be forced to say "heeereee kitty, kitty, kitty!" when I see you. This applies to all other identities. Muslims don't have to recognize me as a Muslim, the Japanase don't have to recognize me as a Japanaese, etc.
Ah, yes my bad.
This is a bit too abstract to address. We definitely do put social and legal expectations on one another that compel us to do or not do things all the time. And sometimes we hit one another with serious consequences for these things.
Perhaps we could focus it a bit.
I thought it was pretty focused? You gave the example of someone identifying as a cat. I added examples of someone identifying as a Muslim or Japanese without being accepted as one by these groups. If you don't like these comparison feel free to give another one, but I'd like that to be accompanied by an argument why the new analogy is better than the ones we already had.
Mmm, I kept rewriting my post because I was having trouble relating it back to trans situations, which are really what all our metaphors are presumably about.
There are lots of object level issues there that play into the social expectations.
I can argue that there are cases where you will be socially punished for not accepting someone as a Muslim or Japanese.
But what I'm really thinking here, is that the analogy isn't useful at all.
Social expectations do exist for all sorts of things, and the expectations and their punishments are very diverse.
Sometimes the punishments come from your local friend group, sometimes they come from formal repercussions.
But whether those expectations and punishments are warranted in the specific case of say, not using someone's pronouns, is really only answerable if we talk about pronouns.
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I think that proves too much. If society shames you for not saying hello or being polite, or calling a married woman Mrs or a Dr, Dr, they are forcing preferences upon you. There isn't any intrinsic reason this should stop any particular place. Society forces its preferences on you all the time, individuals can choose to buck the trend and then take the social consequences but most people will go along.
My right to believe I am a cat ends where I am able to persuade society it ends. Your right not to comply then ends where you don't want to take the social consequences. That's what the whole thing is about! (And of course vice versa, if you can persuade society I am not a cat then if I choose to continue acting as one, I will take the social consequences in return).
If you were able to persuade enough Japanese people to recognize you as Japanese such that they could successfully shame other Japanese people who did not, then at a societal level you ARE Japanese. You could go into Japanese only bars and so on.
It is at once a meaningful biological group and a malleable social group and it is possible to be in one or the other, both or neither.
Yes, and I'm in the process of persuading society that there should be no consequences for this particular thing, Do you mind?
Would you like to participate in the conversation, or continue making the unrelated observation about the arbitrariness of social conventions?
Well if you admit that is exactly what you are trying to do, it isn't unrelated is it?
Remember we are here to discuss the culture war not wage it. If you are trying to persuade society here 1) This is not the venue for that. 2) You'd be better off somewhere with significant "normie" presence.
Its absolutely fine to use arguments as soldiers, but at the very least here you should be upfront about that.
Hence my meta commentary.
It absolutely is! I'll believe you that you think it's related, if you can link me to a comment where you argue, using that logic, in favor of a point you disagree with.
That doesn't mean you get to derail any conversation with "it's all relative, man".
If I comment on something you said, pointing out that it is overly broad and that it applies to any attempt to force preferences, and indeed that many of your preferences are forced right now, and then you say yes that is what you were doing, trying to force preferences, then logically those things are related. So I don't have to prove anything from any prior comment. Everything needed to determine if I am correct or not is contained in this chain. It's not really relevant whether you believe I believe those things are related or not. That is entirely up to you.
Having said that, it doesn't matter whether I think you are correct not, just that the justification for your position is weak. Don't mistake me criticizing your logic for the fact I disagree with your position. Your statement was I think false. People's rights to do X does not in fact end when you are forced to do Y. Maybe it should end there, but it clearly doesn't (which you yourself seem to admit). Given that, using it as an argument makes your position weaker as it is easily rebutted. I am not saying change your position, I am saying make a better argument that fits with how things actually work.
You can feel free to take my word that I am up front or not. And if you feel I am derailing the conversation, you do not have to respond. No harm, no foul on my end at least.
No, i said I'm trying to persuade people that a preference isn't worth forcing.
Yup, like I said, I'm going to need some evidence to accept that you are.
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Not a problem. I frequently load my language with my own values, as a way of communicating those values to others.
Correct. Their identities are not real.
Correct. They should have no such expectation.
Am I correct that you're a new name in this comment thread? Sometimes I lose track.
But yes. I fully expect people to load their language like this. I was somewhat confused for a moment when I believed the person I was responding to lacked self-awareness on the matter. In any case, the confusion was sorted out.
I think there is quite the conversation to be had on the nature of identity. Certainly it is not true to say "I am of the species Felis catus" but if I say "I am a sapient being who goes 'nyaa', and wears cat ears, and likes pets and scratches." then that is not an illusion. That's objectively correct, nyaa. I might even shorthand that to "I am a catboy."
Unless we want to go deeper, and speak of all identity as an illusion. Or we could have a whole conversation on what constitutes the cultural legitimacy of an identity.
Either way it seems overly simplistic to just say "Their identities are not real" and leave it there. There's just so much to say about identity.
Why not? I certainly expect it from all of my confidants and peers.
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