site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34967 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Not being a proponent of privilege theory myself this doesn't sound like a steel man. I don't think that people who support privilege theory think that whites being helped is a fundamental force of the universe, it's believe to be sourced from human bias, which is known to be fallible.

If you follow the logic of the actually existing privilege theory, rather than allow theorists do damage control after being confronted with an uncomfortable example, then he's right. There was a relatively recent discussion on TheMotte (still back on reddit, I believe), where the fortification of milk was being used as an example of systemic racism. There was no evidence provided for bias being in any way involved, and it never is. The existence of the discrepancy is always evidence for systemic racism in itself. At the very least that would mean our society is systemically racist against white people, and that is explicitly said to be impossible by privilege theorists.

I see now(and that you mentioned this and I missed it) that you're using privilege theory as a moniker for all of the social justice/woke/progressive and not the more narrow subsection of their theory. I still think this is a failing of the ideological Turing test. Even by their theories if we eliminate privilege we're all supposed to be uplifted and thus a 'universe with whites in charge can only do things that help whites' contradicts 'if we don't hold down people of color then we'll all benefit from their unique perspectives'. You can assert that they're only espousing that second axiom as a cynical lie but this is not a steel man and fails the sniff test to me as I live among the progressives and this is not how they think. Right or wrong they truly believe.

I see now(and that you mentioned this and I missed it) that you're using privilege theory as a moniker for all of the social justice/woke/progressive and not the more narrow subsection of their theory.

I disagree. If anything, isn't "systemic dyscrimination" a subsection of privilege theory, rather than the other way around?

You can assert that they're only espousing that second axiom as a cynical lie but this is not a steel man and fails the sniff test to me as I live among the progressives and this is not how they think. Right or wrong they truly believe.

I'm only accusing them of contradicting themselves, whether that's because of cynical lies, or bias of their own, or some other explanation, is not relevant to me. There's a very simple way to prove me wrong. Find me an example from their literature where they consider some example of disparate outcome as a potential example of systemic discrimination, but ultimately argue against it because of lack of evidence of bias. Alternatively you can show me how they call out a case of systemic racism against white people.

Alternatively you can show me how they call out a case of systemic racism against white people.

Ibram Kendi DID note structural barriers for whites and the incentives to "pass" it created.

And his response to people noticing this was just to delete it and pretend otherwise.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats