site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   33348 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 27, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Could it not simply be that these mens moral characters are fine, but they simply lack the resources and experience many women desire?

Well, dating dynamics still don't favour Chinese and Korean men in the west despite pulling a hefty paycheck. Many are virgins even in their 30s. Ditto with Indian men, but arranged marriages and the low desirability of their own women ensure (heh) the problem fixes itself after a point. Feminists are very bent on subverting "unrealistic standards of female beauty" in the media, yet are perfectly fine with unrealistic standards for men, part of the intention is to artificially lift their status in the sexual market. I suppose that somewhat explains why South Asian and Black women in the west tend to be the most woke. They're both minorities in a largely white culture, but they have no equivalents to the yellow fever.

They're both minorities in a largely white culture, but they have no equivalents to the yellow fever.

There's one for Black women (I am much less familiar with American desi culture), but it's mismatched with internal American Black culture dynamics. Being of "yellowbone" or "redbone" complexion is a high-status marker in ADoS culture, but White men who are attracted to Black women report higher preference for darker skin. Dating a pureblood Yoruba or Dinka immigrant would be their first choice.

I wonder if women born in such marriages are just as bitter as hapa men about their White fathers' fetish ruining their dating prospects.

Interestingly, the one hapa guy had issues because his Asian mom would not let him bring girls around for fear that they'd steal her white husband.

The fetish is not always on the side you expect.

I wonder if women born in such marriages are just as bitter as hapa men about their White fathers' fetish ruining their dating prospects.

Human variance is wide, I'm sure there are those to whom this is an actual fetish, but pathologing normal partner preferences always struck me as discourse poison.

I wonder if women born in such marriages are just as bitter as hapa men about their White fathers' fetish ruining their dating prospects.

Are you sure this isn't mostly an observed phenomenon from evaporative cooling on forums leaving the most extreme examples? In real life, the half-Asian guys I know do just fine with women. I suppose if they did have antipathy towards their white fathers they wouldn't tell me, but it doesn't seem like something that's obviously true. The whole thing seems like a coping mechanism for romantically failed men to blame something other than their own personalities.

In real life, the half-Asian guys I know do just fine with women. I suppose if they did have antipathy towards their white fathers they wouldn't tell me, but it doesn't seem like something that's obviously true.

I don't have any hard data to go on here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ones with antipathy disproportionately grew up with a single mother -- I can absolutely see how a mixed-race child with trouble fitting into the side of the only family available to them could blame their absent father, especially if there's an easily seen "my mother was just a fetish for him" or something like that.

but White men who are attracted to Black women report higher preference for darker skin. Dating a pureblood Yoruba or Dinka immigrant would be their first choice.

Yes, maybe for fetishists or people who are really fixed in their preferences that they search out black women (even then I'm doubtful, I suspect that their definition of "darker" is different -lighter- from mine).

It's still possible that the median white man would prefer a woman whose blackness is less...obvious or she even passes for white.

as bitter as hapa men about their White fathers' fetish ruining their dating prospects.

Really? In my experience mixed white/east asian people, both men and women, skew uncommonly pretty.

Unless you mean, like, half polynesian/half white people?

skew uncommonly pretty.

There is something of a stereotype among incel types, in which the male product of a white father and an Asian mother blames his make-up on his lack of height and more masculine features. Essentially, it's sour grapes in which these guys fantasize about an alternate mother that might reroll their build as "tall and masculine" instead of "pretty and good at math".

Mixed White/Asian incels that look Asian complain that Asian girls prefer White and White-passing men to them.

I suppose that somewhat explains why South Asian and Black women in the west tend to be the most woke. They're both minorities in a largely white culture,

Is that true, though? I would expect that most black and south-asian women to be living in areas where white people are at best a plurality; I would expect the young dating cohorts to be living in places with demographics like Oakland's.

What's the source for the second chart?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats