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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   33253 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

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Every bit of anecdotal evidence I have ever read - but it's still anecdotal! - is that in practice a trans-identifying kid will be "confirmed" as trans basically on their say-so. I've never actually heard of a doctor at one of these clinics saying, "Well, actually, have you considered you might not be trans? Let's work on some of your other mental health issues and then revisit this."

I mean, a clinic in Canada was shut down over doing exactly this. To the activist, that's "conversion therapy", and they will end your career over it. To add insult to injury, the accusation which finally did get the Canadian clinic shut down turned out to be about a different doctor entirely. But the activist worked with what they had.

Coincidentally, Jesse Singal did the breakthrough reporting on that case too, including showing the person allegedly victimized by a doctor a photo of the doctor activist were attacking, to which the alleged victim responded that it wasn't the man who victimized him.

He cannot shake the conviction that if he yells this often and loudly enough, he will make them see. And he won't. Ever. So he ends up looking like deranged Reply Guy who is obsessed with this topic and wants to fight everybody. Meanwhile, his enemies, who don't actually care whether he's right or not, only that he's on the wrong side, see that they can keep winding him up by saying "Look at Jesse Singal being transphobic again."

I wonder at this. Jesse has been working this beat too long, and seen too much of the inmates running the asylum for that. The problem is that he can't escape the cultural framework of D's good, R's bad. It is literally unthinkable to him that D's might be the baddies on this one. That as a party and a cultural force they are responsible for the mutilation and sterilization of countless children. It's too large an atrocity for him to even consider on his side's hands. And even if all the evidence, all the personal experience, says so, there must still be some way that R's are actually still the baddies.

It's unclear what his end game is. Maybe he doesn't have one. Maybe he doesn't hope for any change, and is just a reporter working his beat.

It is literally unthinkable to him that D's might be the baddies on this one

From my perspective, one that I imagine is quite similar to Singal's, the D's aren't the 'baddies' for three central reasons.

Firstly, for the average Democrat this is simply not an important issue. I could name literally hundreds of issues that are of greater significance than the trans debate, even for the average Democratic legislator I strongly suspect that the issue does not really occupy their thoughts very often. When was the last time Congress debated the issue? In state Houses and Senates it comes up more but even then only on occasion. The point is that this is an issue whose prominence on the internet and in vaguely left-wing popular culture is completely out of proportion to its prominence in partisan politics, and in fact its actual importance.

Secondly, where it does crop up in partisan politics its generally in the form of anti-discrimination bills, or culture war fluff like sports, rather than the specifics of transgender medical care; indeed, in general medical practices are not something directly intervened upon by politicians, so the issue is fairly left to the non-partisan regulatory state and independent medical bodies, and it's surely best that way. Even if you think the current state of affairs is unacceptable, I doubt that we'd be much better off with state or Congressional Republicans managing medical practices.

Finally, the Republicans are hardly any better. Singal is good because unlike most commentators on transgender issues (on the sceptical side) he doesn't come across as a deranged culture warrior with an axe to grind, which unfortunately seems to be the case for most Republicans.

Firstly, for the average Democrat this is simply not an important issue.

Literally every single democrat on my street has one or more pride flags flying way out into the road so nobody can miss it. Some of them replaced the old version with the "progress pride" thing last year, while others just fly both. Half of them have "in this house we believe trans women are women" signs up.

I am not going to believe you that they do not care about this when it seems to have eclipsed race as the number one thing to signal party loyalty and make ominous threats to dissenters over.

Wait what, aren't you German? Where do you live? Kreuzberg? shudder

Haha this was a terrible name to pick, wasn't it.

Not sure if you know this, but Bernd is a stereotypical German boomer name. It is also what anons are called on the German chans.

Yeah, it was a reference to an old krautchan thing. Talk about dating yourself: may as well put up a "get off my lawn!" sign at this point.

Firstly, for the average Democrat this is simply not an important issue. I

What's the average Democrat's response to Republicans' attempt to stop it? "Oh, that's not an important issue, go ahead, no I won't cancel you"? Maybe, but I suspect not.

I don't think the average Democrat engages in much cancelling, or tries to While certainly they (and I) would oppose some (most?) of the measures Republicans introduce here and there, it still wouldn't, I think, stand as a great priority.

Average Democrats are not relevant to the conversation. It's activists and the leadership that decide on which course is taken, and they definitely do coordinate cancelation campaigns. They're also pushing through the trans ideology throughout the education system, legislature, etc.

There are things I'd also put in the category of "I'm against it, but it's not important". I prefer lower taxes to hiflgher taxes, less bureaucracy to more, etc. Normally these sort of issues would be ripe for a compromise, if you give me control over "unimportant" cultural issues, I'll give you pretty much anything you want. Does that sound like a good deal to you? Is there any evidence average Democrats would go for it? If not, it is simply not true that the issue is not important for them.

leadership

I meant leadership as well.

legislature

Where?

Does that sound like a good deal to you?

Well it would have to be within reason, but in very broad terms yes I would make social policy concessions for economic policy returns.

Where?

Throughout the western world. In Europe there's a bunch of self-ID laws being pushed, often covertly without public debate. Same for blue states in the US, though over there they are balanced by red state legislatures.

Well it would have to be within reason

Yes, obviously it would have to be within reason on both sides. So if Democrats are so open to such a compromise, doesn't it seem strange to you they haven't offered one in all those years? Could it be an indication that the issue is more important to th then you claim?

Such a compromise won't happen for several reasons; most Republicans do not share your low opinion of the importance of economic issues, and in addition that's just not really how politics works. Compromise tends to be intra-issue rather than inter-issue and that's always been the case.

I know it won't happen, but the lack of such an offer proves my point.

Compromise tends to be intra-issue rather than inter-issue and that's always been the case.

Yes, but again to me that proves there's no such thing as an "unimportant issue" in politics.

Hear that whistling? It’s the sound of goalposts receding into the distance.

That as a party and a cultural force they are responsible for the mutilation and sterilization of countless children.

What's the average Democrat's response to Republicans' attempt to stop it?

They were definitely talking about normies rather than (just) activists.

The second part was added as a bonus to show his argument would fail on his own terms.

Your post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You agree that this trans pandemic is out of control and damaging people. You agree that Dems are asleep at the wheel, or facilitating it.

And yet when Republicans do what they can to try to stop it, suddenly they become the baddies. Because it's "culture war fluff" to keep rapist out of women's spaces. Or it's discrimination to ban the dangerous and unregulated mutilation and sterilization of children.

So you create this situation where you acknowledge the problem, your "side" broadly sits on it's hands or encourages it, and you claim the only people trying to stop it are the bad guys. Because, for whatever reason, even when Republicans are addressing the problems you admit are problems, and are trying to stop the things you admit should probably be stopped, it's just unthinkable to you.

Also, it's a preposterous framing that "in general medical practices are not something directly intervened upon by politicians". The FDA regulates what drugs we are allowed to take. Dangerous or inhumane medical procedures do get banned by governments, like lobotomies. This learned helplessness towards the medical community going off the rails with respect to trans treatments is bonkers. As is the vitriol even people who acknowledge it's a problem direct at anyone who attempts to fix it.

The FDA regulates what drugs we are allowed to take.

Yes, but that's not a partisan affair. The FDA should take whatever action they deem appropriate on transgender care and they don't need politicians to weigh in on the specifics of the decision. Politicians determine the broad remit of the FDA, they don't interfere with its functioning on specific issues.

You agree that this trans pandemic is out of control

I wouldn't go that far, certainly. As for 'asleep at the wheel', it's a question of prioritisation. Political capital and legislative time are finite, and I'd much rather politicians focused on any number of other issues than making ad hoc adjustments to the state of transgender medical care.

the FDA is partisan, acts in partisan ways, and is filled with people who consider themselves Democrats and with political donations to Democrat or more "leftward" orgs signifying their allegiances

"the admin state is a nonpartisan affair" is not a defensible position in 2023

additionally, claiming a political entity created through politics which acts on the politic on behalf of the politic isn't "political" is absurd

"political" is absurd

I didn't say it wasn't political, I said that it wasn't partisan.

In any case, simply because most people at the FDA will be Democrats that doesn't mean one can automatically conclude every decision they make on specific approval of specific treatments will be part of some partisan agenda.

"the admin state is a nonpartisan affair"

I think this is actually broadly true. Undeniably, Democrats are overrepresented significantly in civil service work, but the administrative state opposition that it was frequently claimed Trump would encounter never materialised.

why would "every action taken" have to be "necessarily" part of "some partisan agenda" in order for the FDA to be not "nonpartisan"?

nor did I say that was the only reason to conclude the FDA was partisan

we went from you broadly labeling the FDA as "a nonpartisan affair" to now moving the discussion to defending that every decision taken is part of a partisan agenda

this is silly

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