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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32994 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 13, 2023

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It seems to me the slatestarcodex subreddit has been fully normified.

It's Eternal September everywhere, and the SSC modteam barely exists on reddit anymore. Baj hasn't posted on reddit in five months, Cheeze occasionally moderates but was pretty low-participation already by the time I became a moderator, Zorba is busy with this place when he's not busy with life, Scott himself is a token mod to satisfy Bakkot's aesthetic, and Bakkot seems to be one of those people who refuses to ever give up control of anything even when he no longer contributes to its well-being nor even especially pays attention to it. HarryPotter5777 does most of the modding (which is not much) but this appears to be more a small extension of their moderation of other communities.

The topic of exiling the Motte from SSC has been done to death, but I think in retrospect what was exiled was not "the Culture War thread," it was "the spirit of open discourse." Obviously you can't have the CW thread without that spirit, but I am increasingly persuaded that you can't have the spirit of open discourse with topic bans. You can't have Free Speech with an asterisk; the asterisk strangles the life out of the conversation, quickly or slowly. The whole enterprise withers on the vine; if anything does remain, it's mostly just virtue signalling.

It's frankly frustrating, because damned if I'm not tempted to slap some of the more annoying people around here with topic bans, sometimes! And there are still occasionally some good threads that crop up on the SSC sub from time to time, and in other places in the diaspora. But even Astral Codex Ten is a shadow of Scott circa 2015, because he's muzzled himself (or allowed himself to be muzzled) in spite of his increased freedom and wealth (or perhaps because of it--he now has something substantial to lose!). Respectability and stultification seem repeatedly to arrive hand-in-hand.

E: Ill remove if consensus building.

You specified that it "seems to me" and you didn't say "everyone knows," so I think you're good.

In Scott's last linkfest he hinted that he was no longer living in San Francisco. Not that that would help him much with an ability to return to his 2015 self, but I'm curious if he really is no longer in the area.

I also "didn't live in San Francisco" for years. I still lived in the Bay Area, like I believe Scott does.

I lived in Oakland for 10 years but would still see the condition of San Francisco, homeless or otherwise, due to sheer proximity.

I'm in San Francisco proper now, long after I've passed the age where it feels necessary to be here. Would have killed for this at 30 lol.

I would very happily take recommendations for new mods, for what it's worth. It's tricky because we've gotten burned a few times by giving good contributors the mod bit and then having them immediately stop participating, possibly because dealing with the worst posts is sometimes dispiriting (though really it's the edge cases which are more draining to deal with), so we don't want to simply offer the position to any good contributor - that's evidently a good way to get less participation from good contributors, which is the opposite of what we want. And while I'm sure there's lurkers out there who would be a good fit, there's no good way to find and vet them.

I would really like to be responsible for less of the moderating, but there would need to be other, more active mods for that to work.

In the previous two months which are all the mod log shows, I've taken about 600 actions, HarryPotter5777 has taken about 70, and other mods about 6. ("Anti-Evil Operations" has taken 3.) Keep in mind that most of these actions are approving comments which were reported but not quite over the bar of warranting action, removing spam, or otherwise invisible. (I've been unusually busy the last few months, which is reflected in my reduced use of reddit; I think the ratio was even more skewed before that.)

While I'm popping my head in, I should say that I'm not actually the one who added Scott (that was one of the very first other mods, since departed). He uses his mod bit exclusively to sticky and unsticky new threads for posts from the blog when he gets there before I do, so it's correct not to call him a mod in any real sense, though, yes.

I've taken about 600 actions, HarryPotter5777 has taken about 70, and other mods about 6. ("Anti-Evil Operations" has taken 3.)

Thanks for sharing--I apologize for drawing conclusions from limited evidence (your public posting histories; HP5777 has recent mod-hat comments and you do not) but of course I don't have access to anything else.

It's tricky because we've gotten burned a few times by giving good contributors the mod bit and then having them immediately stop participating

Yeah, that's been true of the Motte as well, and I daresay many other places besides.

The topic of exiling the Motte from SSC has been done to death, but I think in retrospect what was exiled was not "the Culture War thread," it was "the spirit of open discourse."

I'm inclining more and more to the notion that what is needed is some of us stickle-backed old dinosaurs with right-wing and conservative views. The Schism was set up to accommodate those who felt they were being dog-piled by the righties, and to be more sympathetic to the left-wingers who were leaving, and it has settled down to being rather flat, in my opinion. Comment threads there don't get to the length as on here. Everyone pretty much murmurs "yes, how true" to the original post. SSC, from the rare times I dip back in, has gone the same way. The Culture War was purged, now it's comfortably leftie-progressive in its views. And stagnating, I regret to say.

(All opinions expressed above are the personal views of the author and are not to be taken as representative of The Motte).

Now, before anyone wants to remind me, I am very well aware of the danger of getting our own little right-wing echo chamber going here, and certainly there are opinions expressed that I do vehemently disagree with. But I think that is the benefit here - for whatever reason, be it that we're accustomed to seeing right-wing/conservative views decried as the most evil of evil, or whatever, I do think that (a) there is a spectrum, not a monolith, of conservative views and (b) right-wingers are a bit more thick-skinned when it comes to debate/argument. So where someone on the left of the centre might flounce off because "you are personally attacking me, this is hate speech and violence", I think someone to right of centre is more inclined to stick around and fight it out. I mean, I know I have views that would get me hanged as a bigot and a transphobe and a racist and I can't remember the entire list of badness, on other places on the Internet where any divergence from the current orthodoxy is pure evil (see Jesse Singal's travails, and he's more liberal than I am).

There is also the benefit that as an off-shoot of the original SSC, Scott's rules about niceness and charity are still being followed. This keeps things from degenerating to the level of just shouting insults at each other. If I want to express my full-flowing bosom about the likes of Felker-Martin, I'll head over to CultureWarRoundup (a very useful safety valve to vent). I'll try and keep on the civil side on here.

Everyone pretty much murmurs "yes, how true" to the original post.

This is not at all true, there have been substantive debates where people have made it clear they disagree with a top-level post for a variety of reasons.

Now, before anyone wants to remind me, I am very well aware of the danger of getting our own little right-wing echo chamber going here

It's not "get going here", that echo chamber is already happening. Almost every comment in this whole chain of comments, starting from the very top with OP, is people complaining that leftists are controlling the ssc subreddit because they want to banish any inconvenient truth that clashes with their ideology. We're not getting an echo chamber here, we're literally sitting in one right now.

Almost every comment in this whole chain of comments, starting from the very top with OP, is people complaining that leftists are controlling the ssc subreddit because they want to banish any inconvenient truth that clashes with their ideology. We're not getting an echo chamber here, we're literally sitting in one right now.

If the ground shakes, a lot of people will say "Whoa, an earthquake". That doesn't indicate an echo chamber.

If you want to use that analogy, we have people here who hear T-Rex thumps like Jurassic Park 1 and assume it's always an earthquake, and everyone around them agrees.

This is not at all true, there have been substantive debates where people have made it clear they disagree with a top-level post for a variety of reasons.

Sometimes, I agree, that happens. But comment threads don't seem to get going over there and while that may be a function of "not many people were interested in transferring over" and so a smaller commentariat, it does seem to me, the times I drop in to see if anything interesting is going on, that they peter out because of the "yes, that is so" effect.

people complaining that leftists are controlling the ssc subreddit because they want to banish any inconvenient truth that clashes with their ideology

It's been a while since I did wander over to the original (what remains of it) SSC - I hung around The Motte back on Reddit and on here, I dipped in and out of DSL but moved away from there, and I waited for Scott's new place to get up and running, but mostly left with the rest of the diaspora after "we don't want no Culture War no mo" event. I've been very surprised by what it's like now, I have to say. But again, new blood came in after we moved out so it's their house now.

Sometimes, I agree, that happens. But comment threads don't seem to get going over there and while that may be a function of "not many people were interested in transferring over" and so a smaller commentariat, it does seem to me, the times I drop in to see if anything interesting is going on, that they peter out because of the "yes, that is so" effect.

I think you're leaving out the biggest factor - the sheer volume of top-level posts where people come to bring out their axes to grind. Anger drives posting in a way that's difficult for other emotions to do.

Anyone who disagrees with those posts can reply with either evidence to the contrary or just their personal opinion. And unlike on reddit it will not lead to <deleted posts> and the mods locking the entire thread because "y'all can't behave. It's basic human decency. Do better"

Anyone who disagrees with those posts can reply with either evidence to the contrary or just their personal opinion.

Sure, that could happen. But you don't see that happen. The amount of pushback against those positions is dwarfed by the amount that agree with those positions.

I think we are slightly more right here. The Schism was for those liberal/lefties who felt they were being persecuted, DSL ended up as the haven of the very right-wing, ACX is a mix of what the old SSC was like, and on here are the more centrist(?) righties. With the mass migration, I think it did shake out that those who remained on SSC behind after the Culture War thread split off on its own were more inclined to be on the left, and the various dispersions since then have only increased that effect.

It's like the sediment jar test, we've all settled into our various layers, though there is still an admixture.

This is a strange notion of an echo chamber. By this standard, any group that has reached effective consensus on a partisan issue is an echo chamber; in reality this is a necessary (arguably: in my view, 4chan/pol/ is an echochamber despite it being filled with contradictory bullshit of the same genre), but not a sufficient condition.

The only thing keeping those leftists out of here is generic moderation against uncouth tone (and their own disinterest, of course); the thing keeping us out of there is an explicit prohibition on discussing a not particularly fringe scientific hypothesis that's germane to the topic. We see their arguments. They don't see ours and are lost in their own echos.

The only thing keeping those leftists out of here is generic moderation against uncouth tone (and their own disinterest, of course); the thing keeping us out of there is an explicit prohibition on discussing a not particularly fringe scientific hypothesis that's germane to the topic. We see their arguments. They don't see ours and are lost in their own echos.

You're ignoring a pretty important point - the inevitable dogpiling when someone disagrees with this place's mainstream opinions. That has a tendency to drive people out as well, and it began all the way back when it was just a thread in the ssc subreddit.

I don't know about dogpiling. I've always felt that that was an intentional effect, a campaign: everyone is co-ordinated to drive off the heretic. I know I don't think like that when I'm responding to something that seems very egregious, even if there are already several other responses as well. I agree that it can be a problem when someone says X and gets ten replies all saying no, it's Y - but that is different to having a set-up where there is deliberate action to drive someone off. I don't think we have that here.

I agree. But the effect is roughly the same because it's a largely a question of character, not perception, whether you bear repeated criticism. I don't blame any particular person because it's a collective action issue.

I don't know about dogpiling. I've always felt that that was an intentional effect, a campaign: everyone is co-ordinated to drive off the heretic.

When the Motte was still on Reddit, someone (my google-fu is abandoning me) came up with the idea of a distributed Gish Gallop, which I found rather insightful. Also, prospiracies are a thing, IMO.

The effect of a coordinated attack against the heretic, and just members of the majority opinion saying their opinion towards the minority, are identical if you're at the receiving end. And this seems to me the central problem, on /r/SCC and here, just with opposite polarities.

Distributed Gish Gallop

Earliest mention I see via camas.unddit.com is here back on the mothersub by @TracingWoodgrains; the original comment by /u/saladatmilliways is unavailable (Culture War Roundup for the week of June 25, 2018). Maybe there's some way to find a copy but a quick look didn't help.

Checking out that thread was interesting, and of course nostalgic. Much was lost.

I am not a total relativist. What is the difference between dogpiling and fair criticism of intransigence? This depends on merits of the case, and a proper rationalist should at least entertain the possibility that he's egregiously wrong about a subject he has not studied, thus take an apparent dogpiling – or «mansplaining» or any other sin from the list of progressive anti-cognitive memes – in stride.

I just intuited an observation on that. The Triessences of What, How, and Why occur in that order, and are the spirits of Republican, Libertarian, and Democratic discourse, respectively.

If you start with What, you can follow up with discussion on How and Why, but if you start with Why, you’ve already assumed the What and How.

I’ll add an expansion on these thoughts on political discourse dynamics in my Triessentialism thread sometime before Monday ends.

Left wingers are in power; there's no particular need for them to argue with right wingers. They can just boot them out of any place they want to have a 'conversation', except for a few witch's dens which have no outside influence. (And maybe Twitter, for now).

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