site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29600 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It makes sense, though: no human being is illegal, but I have heard plenty of people describe themselves as being "irregular", at least for a while.

Isn't normative used like a pejorative in the spaces that consider "no human being is illegal" a meaningful argument? we're like one step further on the euphemism treadmill from people who think this way being unable to differentiate between people who are legally permitted to be in a country from those who are not. As cliché as it is this is perhaps the closest thing to newspeak I've ever seen, not just brightening up concepts with pleasant euphemism but attempting to obliterate entire concepts via planned semantic drift.

Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.

Orwell wasn't so much prophesising as parodying existing trends in politics.

I also recommend The Politically Incorrect Dictionary (1992) which is dated but hilarious.

I was just reading today the report South Korea submitted to UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination and appearantly this offical UN body:

The Committee advised the government to review its legislation and official documents to eliminate the term “illegal immigrants” and avoid its use in the future (Para. 8-d CERD/C/KOR/17-19).

With Paragraph 8-d of CERD/C/KOR/17-19 stating :

Review its legislation and official documents to eliminate the use of the term “illegal immigrants” and avoid its use in the future.

And Paragraph 7 of the same document:

The Committee is further concerned about the use of derogatory terms such as “illegal immigrants” used in official documents to refer to migrants residing in the State party without a valid permit, noting that such terms exacerbate negative perceptions of and discrimination towards these migrants (arts. 2, 4 and 7).

So this crusade against the phrase "illegal immigrants" isn't confined to NGOs and organizations founded with purpose of partisan advocacy.

"No human being is illegal" as a phrase against "illegal immigration" is a fully general argument against calling any activity illegal.

It's a good argument against the term 'illegal immigrant', I guess, but I'm not sure if "irregular immigrant" is an improvement.

"No human being is illegal" as a phrase against "illegal immigration" is a fully general argument against calling any activity illegal.

Yes, I struggle to think of a public policy debate more intellectually depraved than the debate in the US on illegal immigration, mainly because opposers of restrictions don't want the activity to be illegal but also don't want to make the effort of arguing for looser legal immigration rules.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats