site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32440 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 23, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Why focus on those, when the bulk of what we want are thinks like insurance-covered hormones for adults and general social acceptance?"

"Why focus on the purges, when the bulk of what we want are things like fair conditions for the proletariat?"

The topic in OP was "gay marriage", though. It's possible to have fair working conditions without purges (see: any modern country) - do you have any reason to believe "gay marriage or trans acceptance" necessitates "scalpel to your 14yo daughter's chest"?

It's much better to actually take issue with trans as a whole.

As an analogy, the gay rights movement came alongside a movement for free love more generally, which included love at any age - hence stuff like this and this. But as gay rights 'won', pedophile rights did not. It's still possible that something about the philosophies behind LGBT also justify pedophilia or transitioning minors in a way representative of why some LGBT things are bad, but that should be argued, instead of just vaguely hinted at with 'scalpel to 14yo daughter's chest'.

The "trans acceptance" part seems to be widely interpreted as requiring a scalpel, yes. (not to mention for everyone to pretend to be happy about it)

It's much better to actually take issue with trans as a whole.

Why is this better? I don't really have much issue with 'trans as a whole' in that I think grown-ups should do pretty much as they please -- just that I extend this to all the grownups, including the ones who don't agree that sorting trans people into the bucket of their chosen gender is overly helpful to anyone.

The "trans acceptance" part seems to be widely interpreted as requiring a scalpel, yes

What, precisely, are you trying to argue here? Is it that "trans activism is generally reasonable, but goes too far with <trans minor surgeries/drag queen story hour>?"

"trans activism is generally reasonable, but goes too far"

Can't speak for him, but for me it would be "trans acceptance is a reasonable goal, but that's not what trans activism is doing".

If so, that's a much more moderate position than arjin, which seemed to be against gay marriage

What are you talking about? Go back to the top level post and Ctrl+F for "gay marriage".

"trans acceptance is a reasonable goal, but that's not what trans activism is doing".

Yep, more or less -- with the caveat that "trans acceptance" doesn't need to mean accepting that they are members of whichever gender they would like to be. (which is probably an even bigger no-no than knife-denialism to the activist community)

that was dumb on my part!

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats