faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
1yr ago
We are discussing the claim that the Germans murdered 6 million Jews.
I agree. Let's discuss that claim.
So Mattogno found documentation for over 11,000 prisoners from Lodz, including women and children, which were transferred from the "extermination camp" Auschwitz to the concentration camp Stutthof:
The two brothers Michael Salomonowicz... and Josef traveled with their mother Dora Salomonowicz, born 28 August 1904, number 1652 on the transport list, registered under number 83619 at Stutthof
All three of those Jews survived the war, so it's interesting to note that all three names appear in the Yad Vashem “Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names"!
Yes. The Yad Vashem “Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names" includes both people who survived and people who died. It also includes whether those people survived or died. According to said database
Dora Salomonowicz is listed by Yad Vashem as having survived.
Michael Salomonowicz is listed by Yad Vashem as having survived
Josef Salomonowicz is listed by Yad Vashem as having survived
"Three people who were listed in the database (as survivors) actually survived" is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.
Here is a list of all of the people who were on the same transport (Transport E, Train Da 20 from Praha) - there are 1020 identified names on that list. You can further filter that list by whether they survived (47 people, including your 3 examples) or were murdered (973 people).
Do you think those 973 people who were listed as murdered were fabricated? Or maybe they survived, but were listed as deceased? I personally think that most of the 973 people who are listed as murdered were actually real people, and really did die. Still, there is virtue in actually looking at the world as it is, in making your beliefs pay rent in anticipated experiences, so I chose 5 random numbers between 1 and 973. Those numbers are 258, 817, 811, 273, and 153, and correspond to the 258th, 817th, etc person in that list of 973 people in alphabetical order.
258: Elisabeta Fischlova, born January 17, 1915. I think this passport application is pretty strong evidence that she was in fact a real person. Beyond that, I can't say a lot -- Yad Vashem lists 142 shoah victims with that last name, all murdered, and as far as I can tell, there are only 24 people alive in the entire world now with the last name Fischlova, so it strikes me as likely that she has no surviving closely related descendants.
We do not live in the fucking dark ages. Genealogical records exist. Those people who survived went on to live their lives, to marry and have children and eventually die of something else at a later time, and their lives left echoes on the modern world. Since we're talking about something that happened less than a hundred years ago, those echoes are not exactly faint. There are Facebook groups for people whose parents died in the Holocaust, because the end of the Holocaust and the creation of Facebook were separated by less than 60 years.
The exact fate of the 973 people on Transport E, Train Da 20 from Praha to Lodz may be lost to time and the destruction of evidence, but we do know that there was an explicit plan to rid Europe of Jews, we know that a large number of people who survived the ghettoes and camps described the details within, we know that there was a specific effort led by Paul Blobel to destroy evidence of mass murders, and we know that Blobel's defense at the Nuremberg trials in regards to that effort to destroy evidence was "I was following orders and thus did nothing wrong", not "that did not happen".
If you take a group of people into custody, prevent them from leaving for a period of years, use them as forced labor in documented terrible conditions, and then at the end of those few years only a few people from that original group are anywhere to be found, and those few people say you murdered the remaining people, and the remaining people are never heard from again, and you say "yeah, I did it and destroyed the evidence after" - then yes, I think it's fair to conclude that you murdered the remaining people. I think it remains fair to conclude that the missing people were murdered, even if there is doubt about how specifically those murders were performed, or what specifically happened to the bodies.
I believe that
If the 4.8 million names from Yad Vashem were largely fabricated, the effort to compile passport and other documents would have been immense, and an immense effort like that would have left marks on the world.
If the 4.8 million names from Yad Vashem had been largely duplicates, I would expect to see a lot more duplicate names and birth dates in the search for people on that particular transport.
If the 4.8 million names from Yad Vashem had mostly referred to people who survived, I would expect to see genealogical records from those survivors.
You will note that I am making specific, concrete predictions of things I will not see. Thus, if you want to convince me, you could try to show
There has been a massive effort to create millions of falsified documents from before the war. Note that this effort would have either been recent or made mistakes that are easily detectable by modern techniques.
If you select 10 people at random from the Yad Vashem list, there are a substantial number of records that Yad Vashem claims are different people but in fact share the same names / birth dates / origins (if your claim is that the actual Jewish death toll was 1.4 million, you would need over 20 duplicate people from your sample of 10).
If you select 10 people documented as "murdered" at random from the Yad Vashem list, a significant fraction of those actually survived, and documents showing their survival (genealogical records, obituaries, etc) will exist, because we don't live in the dark ages.
Note that the "at random" is doing quite a bit of work in the latter two examples - random samples are vital when operating in an environment where people want you to conclude false things.
Do you have any specific, falsifiable beliefs about the provenance of those 4.8 million names and the fate of the people those names referred to?
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
faul_sname 1yr ago
You don't see the circular logic that's being used here? Yad Vashem and mainstream historiography starts with the assumption that nearly all Jews listed in transport documents were murdered in gas chambers. So, if someone is on a transport list, they get listed in the database as a murder victim. Then, in a debate over whether the purpose of these transports was extermination or resettlement, you cite the names from this database that have presupposed the murder of almost all the evacuees.
Irma Bunzlova, born April 30, 1888. Again no picture, though this time there is some sort of police document with her name on it.
The Holocaust is the only controversy where you can just list a name, Date of Birth, "some sort of police document" and then claim that she was murdered without any factual basis.
Typically when you claim someone was murdered, you would require some sort of evidence, such as: death certificate, excavation and identification of remains, autopsies, time of death, cause of death, location of death. You require absolutely none of these things to cite this person as a murder victim. Can you explain any sort of investigation or verification that was used to determine this person was murdered during the war? Or do you not even require the most minimum amount of evidence to believe?
None of your citations include any evidence that the people listed were murdered, except that the Yad Vashem database gives them all the label of "murdered." Where? When? How?
There has been a massive effort to create millions of falsified documents from before the war.
What documents need to have been falsified? You have the name, date of birth, and a single document from a person who was 57 years old in 1945. You are telling me she was murdered without any evidence or elaboration on how this crime was done.
You immediately retreated from multiple salacious claims in your previous posts: your first false claim that the Germans executed 50-100 citizens for each soldier killed in the invasion, and your second claim that 70,000 Jews from the Lodz Ghetto were murdered in Auschwitz.
The latter falsity is especially revealing because it shows when you try to claim with any specificity as to when, where, or how Jews were murdered in gas chambers you can't defend evidence for your claim. You immediately retreat to "look at this 57 year old woman and her passport application in the Yad Vashem database" when pressed with evidence against your claim. Documents show that your claim was false, and it furthermore shows how "mainstream historiography" works: just declare huge swaths of people as murder victims with 0 standard of evidence.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
SecureSignals 1yr ago·Edited 1yr ago
I will ask again, because you keep evading the main question when I include literally anything besides the main question in my responses
Do you have any specific, falsifiable beliefs about the provenance of those 4.8 million names and the fate of the people those names referred to?
A specific, falsifiable belief might be something like "those names mostly did not belong to real people" or "most of the people who were listed as murdered were actually resettled in Siberia, where they lived long and happy lives" or "they mostly died in the ghettoes and in transit due to disease and starvation, but I don't count that as murder".
After you have answered that question, feel free to ask your above questions again.
SecureSignals
Civilization is simply a geno-memetic-techno-capital machine
faul_sname 1yr ago·Edited 1yr ago
My falsifiable claim is that there is no evidence those 4.8 million people were murdered by the Germans during the war. The database is a collection of names and documents with no evidence, investigation, or verification of murder. This is not a legitimate database of murder victims, as any database of murder victims would require some sort of investigation and verification that the entries are people who were actually murdered.
If you are claiming they were murdered, you should demonstrate evidence that they were murdered. An example would be your claim that 70,000 Jews were sent from Lodz to Auschwitz in 1944 to be exterminated. That's an example of an actual accusation of murder we can investigate. Revisionists have investigated that claim and, using contemporaneous documents, shown that claim you be false. You haven't even tried to defend that claim since you initially cited it, so you've fallen back to "look here's a name, DOB, and passport application- this person was murdered!"
People should be extremely suspicious upon learning that there are known locations where the remains of up to a million Jews are said to be buried, but nobody has had the motive to actually excavate those alleged mass graves- despite the obvious propaganda motive that ought to exist but seems to be outweighed by other concerns. So people like you are reduced to pointing at a bunch of names in a database with no commensurate evidence that they were murdered.
Revisionists are the ones who actually want to investigate the scene of the crime. Yad Vashem wants to scan a passport application and add it to their database so the faithful have something they can point to when they claim 6 million were murdered.
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Notes -
I agree. Let's discuss that claim.
Yes. The Yad Vashem “Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names" includes both people who survived and people who died. It also includes whether those people survived or died. According to said database
Dora Salomonowicz is listed by Yad Vashem as having survived.
Michael Salomonowicz is listed by Yad Vashem as having survived
Josef Salomonowicz is listed by Yad Vashem as having survived
"Three people who were listed in the database (as survivors) actually survived" is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.
Here is a list of all of the people who were on the same transport (Transport E, Train Da 20 from Praha) - there are 1020 identified names on that list. You can further filter that list by whether they survived (47 people, including your 3 examples) or were murdered (973 people).
Do you think those 973 people who were listed as murdered were fabricated? Or maybe they survived, but were listed as deceased? I personally think that most of the 973 people who are listed as murdered were actually real people, and really did die. Still, there is virtue in actually looking at the world as it is, in making your beliefs pay rent in anticipated experiences, so I chose 5 random numbers between 1 and 973. Those numbers are 258, 817, 811, 273, and 153, and correspond to the 258th, 817th, etc person in that list of 973 people in alphabetical order.
258: Elisabeta Fischlova, born January 17, 1915. I think this passport application is pretty strong evidence that she was in fact a real person. Beyond that, I can't say a lot -- Yad Vashem lists 142 shoah victims with that last name, all murdered, and as far as I can tell, there are only 24 people alive in the entire world now with the last name Fischlova, so it strikes me as likely that she has no surviving closely related descendants.
817: Vladimir Langer, born February 20, 1921 - Was the son of Fritz Langer and Blanka Langer. None of his immediate family seems to have survived, but he has some more distant surviving relatives - for example his cousin survived the Holocaust and moved to Australia, where he still has surviving relatives.
811: Hedwiga Landova was born on March 28, 1894. Again some official documents exist, but I didn't find any living close relatives.
273: Edita Kristina Flaschnerov, born June 22, 1920. Not a whole lot I can find about her - no picture, just a name and an entry.
153: Irma Bunzlova, born April 30, 1888. Again no picture, though this time there is some sort of police document with her name on it.
By contrast if you look at one of the survivors from the same transport, you can see that he shows up in several genealogical databases, and has a number of living descendants.
We do not live in the fucking dark ages. Genealogical records exist. Those people who survived went on to live their lives, to marry and have children and eventually die of something else at a later time, and their lives left echoes on the modern world. Since we're talking about something that happened less than a hundred years ago, those echoes are not exactly faint. There are Facebook groups for people whose parents died in the Holocaust, because the end of the Holocaust and the creation of Facebook were separated by less than 60 years.
The exact fate of the 973 people on Transport E, Train Da 20 from Praha to Lodz may be lost to time and the destruction of evidence, but we do know that there was an explicit plan to rid Europe of Jews, we know that a large number of people who survived the ghettoes and camps described the details within, we know that there was a specific effort led by Paul Blobel to destroy evidence of mass murders, and we know that Blobel's defense at the Nuremberg trials in regards to that effort to destroy evidence was "I was following orders and thus did nothing wrong", not "that did not happen".
If you take a group of people into custody, prevent them from leaving for a period of years, use them as forced labor in documented terrible conditions, and then at the end of those few years only a few people from that original group are anywhere to be found, and those few people say you murdered the remaining people, and the remaining people are never heard from again, and you say "yeah, I did it and destroyed the evidence after" - then yes, I think it's fair to conclude that you murdered the remaining people. I think it remains fair to conclude that the missing people were murdered, even if there is doubt about how specifically those murders were performed, or what specifically happened to the bodies.
I believe that
If the 4.8 million names from Yad Vashem were largely fabricated, the effort to compile passport and other documents would have been immense, and an immense effort like that would have left marks on the world.
If the 4.8 million names from Yad Vashem had been largely duplicates, I would expect to see a lot more duplicate names and birth dates in the search for people on that particular transport.
If the 4.8 million names from Yad Vashem had mostly referred to people who survived, I would expect to see genealogical records from those survivors.
You will note that I am making specific, concrete predictions of things I will not see. Thus, if you want to convince me, you could try to show
There has been a massive effort to create millions of falsified documents from before the war. Note that this effort would have either been recent or made mistakes that are easily detectable by modern techniques.
If you select 10 people at random from the Yad Vashem list, there are a substantial number of records that Yad Vashem claims are different people but in fact share the same names / birth dates / origins (if your claim is that the actual Jewish death toll was 1.4 million, you would need over 20 duplicate people from your sample of 10).
If you select 10 people documented as "murdered" at random from the Yad Vashem list, a significant fraction of those actually survived, and documents showing their survival (genealogical records, obituaries, etc) will exist, because we don't live in the dark ages.
Note that the "at random" is doing quite a bit of work in the latter two examples - random samples are vital when operating in an environment where people want you to conclude false things.
Do you have any specific, falsifiable beliefs about the provenance of those 4.8 million names and the fate of the people those names referred to?
You don't see the circular logic that's being used here? Yad Vashem and mainstream historiography starts with the assumption that nearly all Jews listed in transport documents were murdered in gas chambers. So, if someone is on a transport list, they get listed in the database as a murder victim. Then, in a debate over whether the purpose of these transports was extermination or resettlement, you cite the names from this database that have presupposed the murder of almost all the evacuees.
The Holocaust is the only controversy where you can just list a name, Date of Birth, "some sort of police document" and then claim that she was murdered without any factual basis.
Typically when you claim someone was murdered, you would require some sort of evidence, such as: death certificate, excavation and identification of remains, autopsies, time of death, cause of death, location of death. You require absolutely none of these things to cite this person as a murder victim. Can you explain any sort of investigation or verification that was used to determine this person was murdered during the war? Or do you not even require the most minimum amount of evidence to believe?
None of your citations include any evidence that the people listed were murdered, except that the Yad Vashem database gives them all the label of "murdered." Where? When? How?
What documents need to have been falsified? You have the name, date of birth, and a single document from a person who was 57 years old in 1945. You are telling me she was murdered without any evidence or elaboration on how this crime was done.
You immediately retreated from multiple salacious claims in your previous posts: your first false claim that the Germans executed 50-100 citizens for each soldier killed in the invasion, and your second claim that 70,000 Jews from the Lodz Ghetto were murdered in Auschwitz.
The latter falsity is especially revealing because it shows when you try to claim with any specificity as to when, where, or how Jews were murdered in gas chambers you can't defend evidence for your claim. You immediately retreat to "look at this 57 year old woman and her passport application in the Yad Vashem database" when pressed with evidence against your claim. Documents show that your claim was false, and it furthermore shows how "mainstream historiography" works: just declare huge swaths of people as murder victims with 0 standard of evidence.
I will ask again, because you keep evading the main question when I include literally anything besides the main question in my responses
Do you have any specific, falsifiable beliefs about the provenance of those 4.8 million names and the fate of the people those names referred to?
A specific, falsifiable belief might be something like "those names mostly did not belong to real people" or "most of the people who were listed as murdered were actually resettled in Siberia, where they lived long and happy lives" or "they mostly died in the ghettoes and in transit due to disease and starvation, but I don't count that as murder".
After you have answered that question, feel free to ask your above questions again.
My falsifiable claim is that there is no evidence those 4.8 million people were murdered by the Germans during the war. The database is a collection of names and documents with no evidence, investigation, or verification of murder. This is not a legitimate database of murder victims, as any database of murder victims would require some sort of investigation and verification that the entries are people who were actually murdered.
If you are claiming they were murdered, you should demonstrate evidence that they were murdered. An example would be your claim that 70,000 Jews were sent from Lodz to Auschwitz in 1944 to be exterminated. That's an example of an actual accusation of murder we can investigate. Revisionists have investigated that claim and, using contemporaneous documents, shown that claim you be false. You haven't even tried to defend that claim since you initially cited it, so you've fallen back to "look here's a name, DOB, and passport application- this person was murdered!"
People should be extremely suspicious upon learning that there are known locations where the remains of up to a million Jews are said to be buried, but nobody has had the motive to actually excavate those alleged mass graves- despite the obvious propaganda motive that ought to exist but seems to be outweighed by other concerns. So people like you are reduced to pointing at a bunch of names in a database with no commensurate evidence that they were murdered.
Revisionists are the ones who actually want to investigate the scene of the crime. Yad Vashem wants to scan a passport application and add it to their database so the faithful have something they can point to when they claim 6 million were murdered.
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