This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Yes, but I am not going to call them out by name. Also, there are several people who rarely or never post top-level threads but will regularly go off in a subthread about their hobby horse.
Other than being slightly patronizing and snarky at times, I do not think @ymeskhout shows poor conduct. And while we discourage snarkiness and sarcasm, even from mods, it's a flaw most of us fall prey to occasionally, and piling on him for "poor conduct" because he was a little snide in responding to someone who constantly engages in bad faith partisan sniping does not move me to demand an apology.
People always think they know what I think based on my modding, and they're usually wrong.
FWIW (and @ymeskhout can confirm this) I have privately voiced my objection to this kind of "calling out" of people just because you've had an argument with them in the past. But a lot of people seem to interpret "criticizing Trump"/otherwise expressing a partisan viewpoint as "picking fights."
As a top-level post, it's not that common. As petty sniping in the threads, or in reports - it's constant.
It's not the hobby horses that bother me, and I think sniping inside threads is de rigueur. Ymes has gone to this well many times, and the only times I have objected are when he has also called someone out. Because calling people out in top level posts is bad for the motte. Top level posts set the tone, and call outs in top level posts generate more call outs and increase the baseline antagonism of the forum.
It looks to me like you determined this was about Trump, but to me it looks like what ticked everyone off was the edit snarking at nybbler. If it had just been ymeskhout and nybbler slapping each other in the comments, everyone would have, well maybe not been fine with it, but limited their grumbling significantly. Even if there are a lot of users just upset that he criticised Trump - which seems likely - there is a core of valid criticism there and it's centred around the call out. Is there a silent majority who loves the call outs or something? Because distilling it to 'criticising Trump' seems like an easy way to dismiss the grumbling, but not a way that will reduce future grumbling.
Usually?
Calling someone out wasn't exactly a great starting point, as I said, but I've seen ymeskhout get jumped on for "writing verbose Trump-bashing lawyer-speak" even when he isn't calling someone out by name.
What do you want me to say, dude? You honestly haven't made that much of an impression on me, but no, I do not think you're an "insipid partisan dick." Try harder and maybe you'll get there.
Lol Jesus Christ, generally speaking that's how that phrase works - you say "a lot of people think thing, they're usually mistaken" to imply that this instance is the rare occasion where someone thought thing but wasn't mistaken. I thought that was the joke you were making, so I played along.
It doesn't bother me that you don't think much of me, I just didn't want you thinking my post was motivated by partisanship, because that seemed to be your impression of all the criticism, and I am partisan sometimes. But I have been consistent on this issue, because I get a klaxon in my head when I see a top level call out, and it's ringing "this way be troll forums". Also you have accused me of picking fights with you in the past, which is what I based my assumption on.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
This is true. I've maintained my disagreement with the idea that it's bad form mainly because I would welcome anyone doing the same to me. I make it a practice to proactively acknowledge my own errors and edit corrections when appropriate (just go through my comment history), and don't understand why people here of all places react so negatively to being caught credulously repeating false claims. I would emphatically and earnestly praise anyone who owns up to mistakes and being stubborn about it is just childish and dishonorable behavior that I don't think it belongs in this forum.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link