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I (a leftist) think this is a fundamental mistake:
A will to power is not permitted, it justifies itself.
The current ascendancy of liberalism itself wasn't permitted, it forced itself into existence from the ballot box and the bullet box. Likewise the progress into the future, however slow, will continue to create itself.
What does the right have to compare to the creative urge? 7000 years of people clinging to old, decaying systems being paved over by progress. Conservatives can win temporary victories, they can freeze progress or roll it back for a short time or even a long time; but conservatives can never win.
The future will always come.
This is the attitude of your progressive; which has been enfeebled recently by a 200 year long string of victories. But if those victories end, the progressive spirit won't end with them. If 1000 years of serfdom and empire couldn't do it, nothing can.
Yes, it will, but I have my doubts that you will like it.
I think the “right side of history” narrative is the left's greatest asset. Popularly, it casts history into a battle between faces and heels, where the faces are these plucky upstarts on their heroes' journey, who have invented every good thing, who are always good, are always right, and always win – and on the other side, the heels are the evil goons who hate goodness just because, who are always bad, are always wrong, and always, in the end, lose.
The main advantage of this narrative is that it means that, whenever there's some controversy, one doesn't need to think about ideas, or events, but only people. One doesn't need to spare a second's thought to the actual merits of the issue, but instead just look at who's on which side: which side has the faces, and which side the heels, and there you go: all that's left is to accept the inevitable. The bend of the moral arc of history is clear; the inexorable weltgeist has spoken. The future will come, like it or not – and, well, if you want to stay a face, you'd better try to like it.
The problem with this narrative is that it lacks predictive power, outside of the short-term. Though every point in support of it is true, that doesn't mean that they tell the whole story, as Scott's recent series on “bounded distrust” has talked about. To me, what it looks like is so much painting the bullseye over the bullet holes, and we can see this because we can still see the peeling remains of previous bullseyes over older clusters of bullet holes. Eugenics, prohibition, communism, harsher sentences for crack cocaine – the march of history hasn't vindicated these, and not only have these been left out of the current narrative of inexorability, not only have (most of them) been disavowed, but in the popular understanding, they're ascribed to the machinations of the heels.
If one is able to control what that popular understanding of history is, though – what's important, and what doesn't matter – then one can exert a great deal of power without even telling any lies of commission. “Whoever controls the past controls the future, and whoever controls the present controls the past.” Unfortunately, those “whoevers” don't tend to last.
So the issue is this: you know which side looks like the faces today, but will they have been the faces in retrospect? Is the story one can tell oneself about what all the True Faces throughout history have in common something that is actually going to endure, or will it be cast aside when it is no longer convenient like all the previous stories of its kind?
Perhaps Cthulhu always swims left, or perhaps “left” is the direction in which Cthulhu is currently swimming. Or maybe even it's not Cthulhu at all, but instead Azathoth, the blind idiot god, not swimming with purpose but thrashing without, and all the stories we tell ourselves about moral progress are just rationalizations about the random swells of moral fashions rising and falling beneath us. (Though personally I doubt – and hope not – that it's entirely that far!)
Ultimately, I think your dilemma is this: if you hold your convictions firmly and sincerely, eventually, despite the grasp you think you have on the direction of progress today, its shiftings and windings will call upon you to abandon some of those principles and support things you and I now consider abhorrent. Either you hold to your sincere beliefs, and not let temporal popularity break your convictions, and then you'll get thrown into the pit with the rest of the regressive heels, or you can abandon them, in which case you may as well be a moral loose cannon, throwing your weight behind whatever way the ship is already rocking irrespective of whatever must be smashed in your path.
Or, maybe, I am wrong, and at last we know, now and forever, the true way forward. Frankly, that would be a great relief, that we won't ever have to change direction again (as a lot of what bothers me about this progress is its churning: revolutions aren't much fun to live through, especially the “eating their own” part.) But I can't bring myself to believe that now is the time when the churning will stop, so I'll do my own best to find a solid place to stand.
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Got kids, do you?
Your kids will be more liberal than you, and their kids will be more liberal than them, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sucks to suck, if guess.
I'm marginally less liberal than my father, who was considerably less liberal than his father. Best as I can reckon, my community has experienced no significant liberal drift in living memory, and still directly draws on insights from our forebears hundreds and even thousands of years ago. I am entirely aware that your tribe intends to cuckoo mine of our children. I'm quite confident that it won't actually work. Too many unhappy people turning against your Utopian project as the consequences accrue.
In any case, you claim Liberals have a monopoly on the "creative urge", ignoring the part where they observably suck at the task of creating new and fully-formed human beings. I mean, I'd be happy to fight you on art or music or literature or whatever else, but approximately none of that will actually matter in a century.
So the question remains: got kids?
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You got a three-day ban the last time you did this. When we ban you for being antagonistic, that doesn't mean "Come back and do the same thing again and see if the mods notice."
Banned for a week this time.
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To me this seems backwards. You occupy the space of the future, conservatives occupy the space of the past, you have no more claim to the enlightenment than a conservative that includes the enlightenment in their definition of conservatism, less actually as much of the current progressive agenda is in direct opposition to it. This is the same hiding the defeats of the past so common of whig history. How can you be sure that what you believe in is the glorious future that was the end of slavery and not the doomed project of prohibition? Did the progressive eugenics projects justify anything else that you'd proudly place under the leftist banner as self justifying future efforts?
Please do not let this reading of the past that you enjoy delude you into thinking you cannot err, that your punches cannot harm innocents, that you cannot cause catastrophe. The nightmares of history come from such confidence.
...And yet Enlightenment ideology reliably produces views like the ones you're responding to, and has since the Enlightenment itself. At some point, one really should ask why, if such views are antithetical to the Enlightenment, does Enlightenment ideology so reliably produce them?
I'm not so sure the causality is so simple here. As for why I still support the enlightenment, I guess I can just put it as simply as because I like it and I'm not going to let people with opinions I abhor dictate what I support. If I must be the only principled libertarianish type person in the world then so be it.
Terminal values are, in fact, terminal, and there are certainly hills worth dying on. I think it's worth interrogating why one holds them, though. The Enlightenment did not invent the concepts of charity, tolerance, liberty and so on, and its record at implementing them is questionable at best. Are these what you value, or is it truly the specific mechanisms of their pursuit?
The specific reference to the enlightenment in the first comment you responded to was more to pick landmark movement in the past that would have been considered some value of progressive in its time and show how t=0 progressives might not actually get the credit for what look in hindsight like whig history milestones and instead the enlightenment conservatives get that mantle because it's the argument they're actually making here and now. So it's a bit awkward to pivot to defending the enlightenment quo enlightenment. I was defending it from the left and now to defend it from the right I'd need to see where we're drawing the borders around it. If this is gut desire to be in my proper place ruled by a monarch for my own good, I think I've demonstrated in the various threads involving the royals here that I inherited a lack for that organ that I can trace back through my father's side to the revolution. Mob rule? I'm a little more skeptical. How all this crumbles down to specific value positions would take some time to do in detail.
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The future has no political orientation. I would argue this is a very distorted view of history, almost Whig. Even the conception of 'Conservatism' you seem to think of as a failed endeavor is a thoroughly contemporary political notion that will not be recognizable in even 100 years. Roman democracy collapsed and was surpassed by an empire for 400 years. Tell an Islamic scholar in 1258 about the notion of ever-continuing progress and i doubt he will believe you. Even modern perceptions of this are distorted because of our geographical location and cultural biases. Russia enthusiastically attempted to enter some sort of western hegemony in the 90's and it failed spectacularly. In 500 years (if we avoid the possibility of nuclear destruction) It is possible that this liberal hegemony has become the focus and identity of the entire world, but it also just as likely that humans of the future will look back at our ideals much like we look back at astrology or early medicine. Things that had good intentions at the time but ended up being fruitless and ultimately against a proper organization of the world.
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