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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   28172 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 26, 2022

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With discrimination law it's important to distinguish the direction of discrimination to understand whether it is enhancing or restricting liberty. Majority>>Minority discrimination is very different from Minority>>Majority discrimination in the impact it has on people's lives. That's the way one distinguishes anti-discrimination laws which prohibit the majority whites from excluding minority Blacks from virtually every public accommodation in the South, leaving Black travelers to consult the Green Book or face a total lack of available restaurants, hotels, and even filling stations or even risk violence; versus the a gay couple who found the one baker in the county who wouldn't make them a cake just to fuck with the guy. One enhances liberty for more citizens, ensuring that everyone is able to find something, increases the speed and reduces the friction of commerce. One reduces liberty for a small number of citizens, pushes them out of commerce altogether, while not enhancing liberty for anyone in a significant way as substitutes were available.

These are at core factual rather than universal considerations.

I have no idea what the social circumstances in Tel Aviv are. Is it the case that I would have trouble finding a venue for my Christmas party? Or is it the case that I would have to go out of my way to find an Orthodox venue that wouldn't let me hold a Christmas party so I could make a stink about it? Anyone know?

majority whites from excluding minority Blacks from virtually every public accommodation in the South

Sorry for nitpick, but in many US states Black population was/is about 30-50%. IIRC there were three states which had >50% for certain period of time.

Correct, but not tremendously relevant to whether a motorist could find a place to stay at night in any given small town.

Seems to me the main question isn’t majority / minority but whether the market is thick or thin.

If the market is thick, discrimination is costly and therefore by and large not an issue (such as the gay cake — there were many bakers who would bake the cake).

If the market is thin (classic is common carrier), then anti discrimination laws may be needed.

Is it the case that I would have trouble finding a venue for my Christmas party?

There's a substantial Christian minority in Israel, and about 1/6th of the population is Russian and celebrates the equivalent Novi-God. You might face trouble if you try to use a venue from ultra-orthodox Jews (Haredim) or something, but otherwise your only problem is that everything is fully booked already.

Do the Haredim offer event venues generally? I was under the impression they were a largely impoverished minority made up of isolated cults and not the sort of thing that own businesses, real estate, and the like.

There’s a lot to say on this. It’s true that many Haredi men don’t work, but most Haredi women do, and a smaller percentage of the men also do work at least part time. The official statistics are also necessarily false, and trend too much towards unemployment, because that’s one way for Haredi men to avoid conscription (without getting into the details of why that is).

Even so, there are business owners that cater specifically to the Haredi market, both from within the community and from outside. It’s a very organized market, so securing a deal with them or even with a specific sect can be very lucrative. As an by anecdote, I used to work for a Haredi Spharadi man doing security for the Lithuanian Haredi population. He had plenty of steady work.

Officially, the great majority of Haredi are poor, but it’s not the same as being poor in the states. Health and education are practically free, public transport is cheap, basic food is donated to them from abroad, and they get very good deals from the aforementioned businesses owners who compete for the Haredi market. They also wield considerable political power, so they can get cheaper housing on the tax payer’s expense. Still, divide their income by the number of family members and they’re deep below the poverty line.

Even before Russians brought the Novi-God, there was Sylvester - which is how Israelis called New Year, because the Jewish New Year is, of course, happening about 2-3 months before. I don't think anybody (non-Catholic) in Israel knows or cares much who St. Sylvester was, but it's how it has been called, and there were parties and events and so on - among secular Jews mostly, of course. I would argue Novi-God is an improvement - at least the holiday is not named after a Catholic Pope now!

True, true. I didn’t think of that, since Sylvester celebrations are more akin to American new-year’s than Christmas (no tree, for example), but for the religious opposition to hosting an event of the sorts it’s roughly the same.

Actual rad-trads don't care about St. Sylvester, so I wouldn't expect the Polish genpop to either.

I appreciate the info! What percentage of Jews do you think would refuse to host an Xmas party, or an Easter party, or whatever?

Let’s say all the ultra orthodox will, just to make the numbers easier. That’s about 1/7th of all Israeli jews, roughly a million people. But, they don’t have a proportional number of venues, it’s much less and they’re generally dedicated for their own uses (e.g they only allow badatz kosher food, separate women and men’s areas).

I don’t know if Easter is well known enough to be refused by anyone.

Then this seems like a real non-story doesn't it.

Hard to say. There’s no actual legislation going on yet, so it’s all up in the air. The examples given to western media aren’t actually relevant either (who cares about Christmas, or Christians for that matter? It’s not really a front in the culture war). In a general sense it sounds pretty bad to me, but I can’t say what will happen in practice.

I think it would depend a lot on where the venue is. Like, in Tel Aviv, probably anything goes, but in the orthodox quarters of Jerusalem it's a different matter. I'm not sure I can talk percentages, but I don't think the religious question would be a problem if you really need a venue and not to make a statement.

I fail to see how this is consistent with the fourteenth amendment guarantee equal treatment under the law. If the law says you can get me, but I can't get you, then it's not treating us equally.

I have some issues with Gorsuch, but he's naively idealistic enough to apply this rationale in cases before him. It's possible that within my lifetime civil rights, the great trampling on my liberty by the federal government, will be reversed in some fashion. It would take some doing.

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