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bolido_sentimental  1yr ago (text post)   4135 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for December 25, 2022

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Does the pronoun "you" in English playing quadruple role (2nd person singular subject, 2nd person singular object, 2nd person plural subject, 2nd person object) harm communication, or would it be better if in English the distinction between subject and object in pronouns wouldn't exist, given that in English nouns aren't declined according to subject/object but only by number (singular/plural) and possessive? But even then the question if creating a distinction between 2nd person singular and plural, as there is in 1st person (I/we) and in 3rd (he/they), is beneficial.

I've always thought that English could do with a second person plural, like 'vous' in French. Being able to distinguish between talking to a group and an individual in a group setting is very helpful.

Of course, language being what it is, English speakers have basically created alternatives out of necessity (y'all, youse, you guys etc). Give it a few hundred years and I'm sure we'll be using them as words in their own right.

In addition to its traditional usage by Southern Americans as well as black Americans from all over the country, "y'all" has recently (within the past 10 years) come into favor among upper-middle-class Americans who wouldn't have been caught dead using it a generation ago. These are most often woke young women who ostensibly prefer "y'all" over the previous preferred alternative, "you guys", because "you guys" is not gender-inclusive (no one seemed to care about that before). I think another contributing factor is getting the chance to sound more black - they feel uncomfortable with using the n-word while singing rap lyrics, so this is the next best thing.

Interestingly, one of the main distinctions between Ebonics and general southern English is that in Ebonics, y’all is the exact opposite of vous- it’s an informal or familiar pronoun not giving a specific statement on plurality. In general southern English it’s still generally plural, but can be much less familiar.

And of course in Louisiana French, the informal pronouns are ‘Tu’ and ‘vous-autre’, and ‘vous’ is reserved for figures that you can never, ever be on a first name basis with, but has no specific connotations of plurality.

Just thought all of that was interesting to note.

Are you saying that "y'all" can be used to refer to one person?

I've always heard y'all to refer to one person with all y'all is the plural form.

Yes. Particularly if the speaker is black.

In some contexts, yes, it's used as a sort of a formal or impersonal version of the 2nd-person singular. Especially in customer service contexts you'll sometimes hear a singular "y'all" as a sign of respectful distance between the speaker and the person being addressed.

(Note: my comment is referring to standard usage in Texas and isn't directly addressing the point above about black American vernacular).

At least by the members of my extended family in Texas, y'all is singular, all y'all, is plural.

“Ye” means “vous.” (O come all ye faithful). It never meant “the,” as in “ye olde castle.” We also had “wit,” which meant “me and exactly one other person.” We threw away perfectly good pronouns.

'Ye' is still used a lot in Ireland. Up north you'll hear words like 'yous' and 'yousens', Dubliners also have 'yis'.

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