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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29716 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 12, 2022

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I would not wish to be put through such thing (extreme lies about me and my dead children by someone influential enough to result in idiots and insane people harassing me).

There's plenty of extreme lies going around, and hardly any of them command such a high price. What does make this particular one cost so much? Is there any evidence it was arrived at through principles, rather than after the fact because people don't like Alex Jones?

There's plenty of extreme lies going around, and hardly any of them command such a high price. What does make this particular one cost so much? What does make this particular one cost so much?

Obviously what makes this one cost so much is not the extremity of the* lies*, but the extremity of the effects of the lies. That is what tort damages are about: Compensation for the damages suffered. I don't know whether the exact amount of the damages was justified -- and they will probably be reduced on a motion for new trial, which is quite common -- but are you truly flummoxed by why this outlier case generated outlier damages? Most extreme lies do not lead to people being harassed to the point that they have to relocate, nor do most lead to people pissing on the graves of dead children, nor to most involve victims who are as susceptible to damage as the parents of murdered 7-yr-olds.

Is there any evidence it was arrived at through principles, rather than after the fact because people don't like Alex Jones?

"People" did not return the verdict in question; jurors did. A jury in CT and jury in TX, both of which were chosen after lengthy voir dire, and both of which were given a set of principles (i.e., jury instructions) to use when making their decisions. I would suggest that that places the burden on you to show that the verdict was arrived at because those particular jurors don't like Alex Jones.

Obviously what makes this one cost so much is not the extremity of the* lies*, but the extremity of the effects of the lies. That is what tort damages are about: Compensation for the damages suffered.

They can also be about politically punishing a troublemaker. A theory far more likely to be true than the idea he caused $10M worth of damages per person affected, given the evidence.

"People" did not return the verdict in question; jurors did

But people think it was a good or bad idea. If you follow the conversation more closely, you might notice I was asking someone who expressed it's a good thing, to explain his reasoning.

A theory far more likely to be true than the idea he caused $10M worth of damages per person affected, given the evidence

Because you are privy to all the evidence? If you have a link to all the evidence that was presented to the jury, I would like to see it.

But people think it was a good or bad idea. If you follow the conversation more closely, you might notice I was asking someone who expressed it's a good thing, to explain his reasoning.

You said: "There's plenty of extreme lies going around, and hardly any of them command such a high price. What does make this particular one cost so much? Is there any evidence it was arrived at through principles, rather than after the fact because people don't like Alex Jones?" What is the "it" that was "arrived at" in "this particular case" if not the verdict?

Because you are privy to all the evidence?

Wait, are you implying there is anything unreasonable about this possibility?

You said: "There's plenty of extreme lies going around, and hardly any of them command such a high price. What does make this particular one cost so much? Is there any evidence it was arrived at through principles, rather than after the fact because people don't like Alex Jones?" What is the "it" that was "arrived at" in "this particular case" if not the verdict?

Yes, it was referring to the verdict. Are you missing the sentence where I said "But people think it was a good or bad idea."?

Then, as I said:

"People" did not return the verdict in question; jurors did. A jury in CT and jury in TX, both of which were chosen after lengthy voir dire, and both of which were given a set of principles (i.e., jury instructions) to use when making their decisions. I would suggest that that places the burden on you to show that the verdict was arrived at because those particular jurors don't like Alex Jones.

If you have special access to the evidence that the rest of us don't, then you should easily be able to present it, along with the jury instructions, and make an argument (as opposed to the bald claim, based on nothing, that you have already made) that the evidence does not support the verdict and hence that the jurors were motivated by hostility to Jones. But, of course, you don't have that access; if you did, you would have presented it by now. You appear to merely be claiming that the outcome is "unfair' or "fixed' merely because your side lost.

Then, as I said:

"People" did not return the verdict in question; jurors did

That doesn't respond to my point. Even if people in general are not the ones to return a verdict, they can still discuss whether or not it could result through application of principles, or whether it was arbitrary.

if you did, you would have presented it by now

Not quite. You see, there is a tendency on this forum for "rational"/"adults in the room" types to frame the discussion in such a way, where they can act as if they are right by default, and demand that the other side provides all the evidence. To be fair, I understand that completely, I do it far more often than I would like (and I mean pro-actively, not just as a defense against it being done to me, like in this conversation. Pardon! I actually did it here as well, but to Smok, not to you!). For anyone who grew up in New Atheism, Skepticism, or Rationalism it will be a matter of habit, it's the easiest way to not be wrong after all. But I think that this is no way to have an honest conversation. If you hold a position on an issue, I think fairness demands that you state it, show your evidence for it, and let the other side poke holes in it as well.

The stance of pure criticism should only be allowed either if it comes from genuine curiosity, or if it is to show a statement made by the other side was clearly false. "There is not enough evidence to conclude X" is not conducive to rational debate, and should be discouraged.

But, of course, you don't have that access;

Now that's a positive claim! I'm happy to address it: are you aware that the entire trial was live streamed?

Yes, people in general can still discussed whether or not it could result through application of principles, or whether it was arbitrary. I never said otherwise. Rather, I took issue with your claim that the burden of proof lies with those who think that the verdict was NOT the result of anti-Jones bias, rather thanwith you. More specifically, if you claim that the evidence before the jury was such that the burden has shifted to those who disagree with you, it is incumbent upon you to clearly and completely state what that evidence was, and why you think it supports your position.

Well, I tried. If you managed to read my comment to mean I want to put all the burden of proof on you, I think it's best if we move on.

I think that many other people should get 10 000 000$ fines for malicious lies. For example Musk for his "Sorry pedo guy. You really did ask for it." tweet and that child bride allegations[1].

And no, I do not buy explanation that convinced jury that "pedo guy" is some standard mild and generic South African insult rather than allegation of raping children.

And people who pushed risky financial instruments while claiming that they are risk-free[2]. With fines waived for unaware low-level pushers in call centers and going into millions for higher-level managers, going into 50 000 000$+ territory at level of CEO. Also when CEO ignored malicious behaviour at lower levels as long as they were profitable rather that ordered it. With jail terms for CEOs that ordered such behaviour. And death penalty for companies while I am at this hobby horse.

[1] Assuming that they were false, I have not verified it deeply.

[2] I got some offer of them and they were deeply misleading and whoever prepared this lies was clueless patsy or evil. Either way this banks would be fined into nonexistence in a just world and if that actions were deliberate by management - they would be all in jail.

Should CNN et al be sued out of existence due to Sandman?

Should CNN et al be sued out of existence due to Sandman?

Sandmann was not interested in fighting to the bitter end and accepted undisclosed settlement and minor celebrity status. For few smirks, he is now set for life.

Want to be more Sandmannist than Sandmann himself? ;-)

I doubt he is set for life. His odds of winning were quite low.

Not familiar with this case, from quick look it does not appear to be as large scale or affecting as many people, or involving blatant log-term and blatantly obvious lies, so I would go with "no".

There was a young kid of even college age visiting DC for a pro life March.

A crazy Native American guy got into his face banging a drum. Sandman smirked.

Media with zero diligence signal boosted a short clip making Sandman basically the face of white supremacy. That is, they turned a young private kid into a national story.

Worse the whole video was available that wholly exonerated any perceived wrong doing by Sandman. Yet the media in their bloodlust didn’t do the tiniest of diligence ran with the story before vetting it at all. Kid was subject to a 2 minute hate based on such gross neglect.

Amazingly "optimistic" of you to think they didn't do any due diligence rather then that they did it and didn't care at all.

They had to watch the video to edit it down to what they showed.

I assume stupidity and zero effort and that they found already cropped clip on Twitter or similar place and reposted it.

Maybe they were more malicious and less lazy and stupid.

The thing they're not lazy about is making sure they have ownership of a clip before they play it on air since the system of who/whom that we call a legal system actually recognizes media ownership claims as important (for now at least) so they would have obtained rights to the video before playing it.

they would have obtained rights to the video before playing it.

I am pretty sure that they could claim that it is case of fair use, so they had no need for that

(IANAL)

If that is accurate they definitely deserved large penalty, though markedly lower than enough to bankrupt CNN.

From your example it looks like the only people who should pay 10M$ per lie, are your political opponents. Can you name some example of people who should pay similar fines for saying things you agreed with at the time?

Actually, Elon Musk is not my political opponent. And to my irritation even after that pedo guy I kind of like him despite trying to avoid that.

Also, I bet that many of bank fraudsters and CEO deliberately ignoring evil perpetrated by their bank share my political preferences (at least, enough of them to vote for the same people).

who should pay similar fines for saying things you agreed with at the time?

I was always against defrauding people and calling them paedophiles/murderers/etc or claiming to have fake children based on transparently false claims.

So I am not really able to provide such examples.

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