This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Seconding @2rafa, but for other reasons – what are you even disagreeing with?
It's commonly accepted that Mongols qua Mongols have been culturally infertile and left no posterity, certainly none commensurate with their success – sans, tellingly, the ancestral cult of Genghis and the story of pilfered riches. No catchy songs, no great monuments, no political treatises. Their military doctrine also didn't become some dominant paradigm. Peoples who suffered under their yoke have more to say of Mongols than Mongols themselves have! Modern scholars try to learn of Mongol institutions through Crimean Khanate!
I doubt they were all that genetically successful, though. Genghis was. The footprint of the whole tribe is not exceptional in proportion to their numbers prior the expansion.
This is mainly because "mongol genetic success" is blatantly false thing. This is what i'm disagreeing with.
More options
Context Copy link
It’s not surprising their direct high-cultural legacy isn’t commensurate with their success, since the economic system that partially underlay their success tends to produce small, illiterate populations. But their political-military system did in fact become dominant in Central Asia, with Timur’s and Babur’s empires (and so-called Turco-Mongol states in general) being self-consciously in that tradition. I don’t think the Timurid empire was culturally infertile, let alone the Mughals.
Eh, it was an innovation, but I think the whole thing was another wave of Steppe expansion in a long series, just in a more historically aware period, making them a popular reference point. Maybe I'm unfair to Mongols.
Are you not counting the Tatars as true Mongols? Surely a Russian like yourself would know about the legacy they left culturally and even genetically to the Russian people. Modern Russia is as much a creation of the Golden Horde as it is the Rus.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I guess there’s the Yuan dynasty. I don’t know nearly enough about their legacy on Chinese culture.
It’s difficult to assess without defining the question more precisely because many of the people administering the Yuan were, well, not Mongol, and many of the changes under the Yuan were not done under Mongol direction. There are lasting imprints of Yuan rule in Chinese history:
Beijing as a lasting capital city likely owes itself to the Yuan
Modern Mandarin has much to owe the Yuan adoption and standardization of a simplified Middle Chinese language
Various innovations in dress, like buttons
Various food imports
Being a pivotal part of the Song-Yuan-Ming economic transition (not necessarily a good thing)
Popularisation of plays and operas, and I think novels
Increased identification of modern Han identity in opposition to non-Han, though this had started earlier and does have ancient roots
Etc.
Notably, though, many of these aren‘t really Mongol impositions on native Chinese that were then carried forth, and some were Chinese reactions to Mongol rule.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link