What difference does it make? He may have invaded because he thought the moon was made of cheese, it’s not a legitimate grievance.
Either might doesn’t make right in which case russia’s security needs do not trump its former satellites’ needs to join rival alliances, or it does then russia is the weak one and its wants are subordinated to the US-EU’s.
Main difference it must make is that Russia isn't the real big baddie of this century from a Western perspective. It is China. If the Western aim wrt Ukraine was to avoid war and come to a peaceful settlement where both sides would become part of some rules based system where the rules are made by the Americans, then it has failed miserably. So it is pretty important to look at why/where things went wrong and take lessons if you want to avoid a proper World War.
If you had read the article, then you would know that Putin’s primary concern was not with NATO expansion as such, but with Russian exclusion from the post-Cold War European security architecture of which NATO was the centerpiece. What you are asserting is a non-sequitur.
Again, main disagreement is I don't think it's a legitimate grievance, as the article keeps asserting. So whether he thought he was excluded from modern architecture, or he thought he was Peter I or some other illegitimate nonsense is irrelevant.
What does this "inclusion in the architecture" mean if not being granted the power to prevent neighbours from choosing allies according to their own security and economic needs?
It’s a euphemism, typical of the two-faced discourse of russian diplomacy and its defenders. The idea is they should have been granted extra powers, officially under a banner of good etiquette, inclusiveness and all things nice, but implicitly backed by the cold threat of military action against the weak if their 'needs' were not 'respected'. That’s the path they went down in Ukraine. They ate their cake, and now that it’s proven indigestive, they want to go back to having it.
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
The rest of your argument is fine, but please do not resort to ad hominems. Russia seems to be one of several topics where people have a problem just saying "I think your analysis is wrong" without adding "Because you are obviously a shill for < Putin >/(((The West)))/whatever."
What does this "inclusion in the architecture" mean if not being granted the power to prevent neighbours from choosing allies according to their own security and economic needs?
The article itself (with which you still have yet to engage) provides plenty of context on this, e.g. re: "negotiations as 20" vs. "negotiations as 19+1." Russia even wanted to join NATO at one point, so the idea that Russia voicing security concerns is purely a cover for stopping neighbors from joining alliances is ridiculous.
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
The article itself (with which you still have yet to engage) provides plenty of context on this, e.g. re: "negotiations as 20" vs. "negotiations as 19+1." Russia even wanted to join NATO at one point, so the idea that Russian security concerns are purely a cover for stopping neighbors from joining alliances is ridiculous.
No, it is not. If not for NATO, Russia by now would have started war with the Baltic countries, probably even gained quick victory because they are smaller than Russia.
As for the fault of the west, some are saying that Hitler got to the power because of hyperinflation. Other economists are quick to argue that it was actually due to austerity policy that followed it. In any case, we can analyse what could have other countries done to prevent fascist Germany. But the arguments that we only had to convince the Jews in Germany to stop predatory banking practices and the WWII would be averted are wrong on too many levels.
The same is about Russia. What the west could have done is to support post-Soviet countries more to avoid crash of their economy. I don't know how feasible it was but at least it is open for debate.
The Baltics didn’t join NATO until 2004. Putin took over in 1999. Russia didn’t invade the Baltics in that five years where they were basically defenseless because … ???
The USSR send military force to the Baltic countries to prevent them from declaring independence. The coup against Gorbachev was attempted.
Argument that because Putin didn't do it in 1999, therefore he would never do it given the chance, is very weird. Sorry for saying that because the rules probably do not allow me to talk like that.
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Notes -
What difference does it make? He may have invaded because he thought the moon was made of cheese, it’s not a legitimate grievance.
Either might doesn’t make right in which case russia’s security needs do not trump its former satellites’ needs to join rival alliances, or it does then russia is the weak one and its wants are subordinated to the US-EU’s.
Main difference it must make is that Russia isn't the real big baddie of this century from a Western perspective. It is China. If the Western aim wrt Ukraine was to avoid war and come to a peaceful settlement where both sides would become part of some rules based system where the rules are made by the Americans, then it has failed miserably. So it is pretty important to look at why/where things went wrong and take lessons if you want to avoid a proper World War.
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If you had read the article, then you would know that Putin’s primary concern was not with NATO expansion as such, but with Russian exclusion from the post-Cold War European security architecture of which NATO was the centerpiece. What you are asserting is a non-sequitur.
Again, main disagreement is I don't think it's a legitimate grievance, as the article keeps asserting. So whether he thought he was excluded from modern architecture, or he thought he was Peter I or some other illegitimate nonsense is irrelevant.
Well, I have no clue why you think it’s illegitimate and you haven’t given an argument for that, so there’s nothing for anyone to go on there.
What does this "inclusion in the architecture" mean if not being granted the power to prevent neighbours from choosing allies according to their own security and economic needs?
It’s a euphemism, typical of the two-faced discourse of russian diplomacy and its defenders. The idea is they should have been granted extra powers, officially under a banner of good etiquette, inclusiveness and all things nice, but implicitly backed by the cold threat of military action against the weak if their 'needs' were not 'respected'. That’s the path they went down in Ukraine. They ate their cake, and now that it’s proven indigestive, they want to go back to having it.
Sad to see hangers-on like you fish out their outdated arguments from the trash can.
The rest of your argument is fine, but please do not resort to ad hominems. Russia seems to be one of several topics where people have a problem just saying "I think your analysis is wrong" without adding "Because you are obviously a shill for < Putin >/(((The West)))/whatever."
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The article itself (with which you still have yet to engage) provides plenty of context on this, e.g. re: "negotiations as 20" vs. "negotiations as 19+1." Russia even wanted to join NATO at one point, so the idea that Russia voicing security concerns is purely a cover for stopping neighbors from joining alliances is ridiculous.
What does this add to the discussion?
No, it is not. If not for NATO, Russia by now would have started war with the Baltic countries, probably even gained quick victory because they are smaller than Russia.
As for the fault of the west, some are saying that Hitler got to the power because of hyperinflation. Other economists are quick to argue that it was actually due to austerity policy that followed it. In any case, we can analyse what could have other countries done to prevent fascist Germany. But the arguments that we only had to convince the Jews in Germany to stop predatory banking practices and the WWII would be averted are wrong on too many levels.
The same is about Russia. What the west could have done is to support post-Soviet countries more to avoid crash of their economy. I don't know how feasible it was but at least it is open for debate.
The Baltics didn’t join NATO until 2004. Putin took over in 1999. Russia didn’t invade the Baltics in that five years where they were basically defenseless because … ???
The USSR send military force to the Baltic countries to prevent them from declaring independence. The coup against Gorbachev was attempted.
Argument that because Putin didn't do it in 1999, therefore he would never do it given the chance, is very weird. Sorry for saying that because the rules probably do not allow me to talk like that.
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