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I'm not convinced such a thing as "gender identity" even exists, but they can express themselves however they want. What they can't do is impose their worldview on others, and get access to sex-segregated spaces.
This is incoherent. To the extent Civil Rights endorse this, they are racist themselves, and the only people celebrating it are racists. And it's definitely not universally celebrated, and not even accepted that it stems from civil rights. What do you think all the drama about DEI and CRT is?
It also fails to rescue your analogy. If this is what trans rights was about, they would demand the abolition of sex segregation for "cis" people, but demand optional spaces for trans people.
I already pointed out how this argument fails. Civil rights did not put forward the idea of "trans-white" people who'd get access to white facilities, it abolished segregation. If trans rights were analogous to civil rights, it would argue for the abolition of segregation as well.
No we haven't. Please don't misrepresent me.
You can claim that you never said that, in which case it would be irrelevant to you, but you don't get to call it a strawman, unless you believe there's a version of your argument that it caricatures.
Forget about the trans stuff for a moment. Why do you think we separate men from women in prisons and other facilities?
And if you want to argue for it, you should be upfront about the costs, so people can make the cost-benefit analysis themselves.
Well, I don't know about "no transphobe". For one, plenty of people are against mass immigration at this point, but sure the race-segregation enjoyers are a minority.
In any case, a big reason for why society sees fit to pay these costs is being the arguments are based on lies. You do your little victory laps because "only racists have a problem with this", but the argument you are putting forward yourself would be condemned as racist. And if you don't believe me, then please, I am begging you, please get your pro-trans friends to use the "black people rape way more whites, than trans rape women, and yet you have no problem with desegregation" argument loudly and often.
I don't see it what way it is either inconsistent or irrational, and the tiny minority doesn't get to impose it's will on everybody else, just because it will make them feel better.
Fair enough. I feel pretty strongly about it, but wouldn't go quite that far myself. In any case I can see where you're coming from a bit better now.
Sure, but people are not sentenced to rape as an official part of their punishment. Rapes happen because of what prisoners do to each other, and if they can't respect their own rights, there's only so far I'm willing to go to protect them from themselves.
And a racist is not sure if black people are actually people. Trans people can and will get access to sex-segregated spaces just like black people got access to white only spaces. The dominant anthropological view in the west facilitates both and negates anything else. Your assertions to the contrary are not relevant since they are negated by society at large. It's not racist to have a black only space. It is racist to have a white only space. Those are the demonstrated values. You can claim dissidence, but you can't make assertions that go against these values and expect them to hold any weight.
DEI and CRT drama is irrelevant. There was a lot more pushback against civil rights than there's been against CRT or DEI. People had to be put to the barrel of a gun to accept that.
Trans rights are about trans rights. They don't need to be anything else. You have men and women, and also trans people. If the boundaries break down further, you will have something else. Just like America now has a lot more mix raced people than before. The aftermath of a successful struggle for human rights is never an argument against it.
A historical artifact of a European monoethnic patriarchal society. The prison system is broken. You can argue for the separation of men and women, just like you can argue for the separation of black and white or tall and short or strong and weak. But so long as the reason for those arguments is not based on safety and reduction of suffering, and instead tethered to misandry and transphobia, you have no rational leg to stand on.
I have done nothing else. On the flipside, I take it you are in favor of desegregation and argue that the fallout has been worth it for the benefit of anti-racism and human rights? Oh, right, that's not how things work. No one who argues for anything like that does so on the basis of its cost/benefit. It's about what's morally right and wrong.
Trans rights aren't just a matter of importance for trans people. They are of importance to any person who recognizes the modern western world order. Being against trans rights is the same as being against morality, rationality and reason. As you can not draw a line in the sand now against trans rights without that line intersecting with other human rights. Like civil rights.
You could use this exact argument in favor of trans women in womens prison. This cavalier morally neutral tone doesn't work after you just took a grand stand on the suffering of female prisoners at the hands of trans women. If you don't care about the suffering of prisoners you don't belong in this conversation at all.
Wrong. On its face, in fact- if you're going to tell me "but racism and racial discrimination for its own sake" aren't the same (which is what you appear to be doing) then perhaps we need to do the same for "rights". Which you also do, of course, but moving on.
How convenient.
Which is why the trans rights faction is hell-bent on doing exactly that (misgender = prison + your kids get taken away to a Residential School).
Fear of men isn't actually the driving force here (though it would be convenient); "trans rights" are fundamentally an intra-orthodoxy fight. One group of women want to gain an advantage over the rest by asserting that they are in control of defining exceptions to "man bad woman good", and then doing those things (like putting men in women's prisons and washrooms) and the rest are more serious about "man bad woman good" as their moral core (those we call TERFs).
And we could talk about the actual issue with transpeople- which is simply that they refuse to accommodate for anyone else in any way resembling self-reflection and are also insisting on making everyone else repeat a lie at gunpoint (if they stopped doing those things there'd be a lot less of an issue, but pretending society is turbo-hostile is a cornerstone of progressive thought and power: I will note you never answered the charge of "Discard the liars and nutcases, then ordinary people will be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt" likely because you appear to believe that those outside the orthodoxy are more dangerous; something I'd dispute heavily given the track record of orthodox social policies)- but again, it's not really about that, it's fundamentally about who the sovereign is and the exceptions they'd like to define.
You seem to be under the belief that you're just arguing with someone who agrees with the orthodoxy on every point but this- but you're not, you're dealing with people who believe both the orthodoxy and the dominant group therein are evil because they insist on putting guns to people's heads in the first place. Hence your emphasis on "misandry" being the root cause going unanswered, where the correct emphasis rests on the fact women shouldn't have the power to dictate these things in an equal society (something you're not on the side of, outside of your private definition of equality that just so happens to just be indistinguishable from "man bad and owe good women merely for existing").
I'm not arguing anything. I'm just relaying the rules to people who have apparently been hiding under a rock for the past decades. White solidarity is racist. Black solidarity is not. That's what 80% of people believe. Hell, that number is probably higher with just the tiniest amount of moralistic framing from mainstream media outlets.
I do operate under the belief that I am talking with people who agree with the orthodoxy given that, from my personal estimation, I could count the number of people here who are against desegregation on one hand. I also operate under the belief I am talking with misandrist feminists in denial. As the only way to get these people to care about the rape and torture chambers we call prisons is to couch the debate in terms of women suffering, rather than men. To that extent not a single person has demonstrated to be anything other than what I assume them to be.
On that basis I argue that trans rights are human rights. I give no personal weight to these concepts. I just hate hypocrisy. Especially when it owes its existence to a lack of consideration for what is going on, and has been going on, in the western world. The aforementioned 80% don't deserve to pretend that they are anything other than what they are. The generations before them had to do the humiliation ritual of their time. Now it's this generations turn. That is what the dominant system that they support demands of them. Whining about it isn't brave, rational or even tantamount to qualifying as 'disagreement'. It's just hypocritical ignorance waiting to be crushed by the system. A valuable lesson for future generations, just like the opponents of civil rights in the past serve as a valuable lesson for the current one.
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