This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I never said that the court should require "any means necessary". I think that there is a certain bar above which you can say that the administration is making satisfactory efforts to facilitate his return, and that courts are qualified to determine where that line is. The problem here is that the administration has made clear that they have no intention of doing anything; indeed that their preferred outcome is that the deportee remain imprisoned in El Salvador. If the administration at least tried to give the appearance that they were making minimal efforts to secure the guy's return, I'd be more sympathetic to the government's argument. But they're making a public show of doing nothing.
If the Court has a better plan, then they should order it and get it over with.
The district court order the government is appealing requires them to provide updates and outline steps being taken to effectuate his release. The government is arguing that they aren't required to do that. I don't think anyone is under the impression that El Salvador wouldn't return him if the Trump administration were serious about getting him back.
Sorry, this is about the principle. Do you think the courts can generally demand the executive make specific foreign policy actions, requiring specific ends in direct contradiction to the logic in the legal decision upthread? Can you elaborate exactly what the limits of this judicial power are? Remember, we're all being DEEPLY CONCERNED about slippery slope precedents - can you show us exactly where the judges have explicitly claimed that they CANNOT order the executive to overthrow foreign governments? I mean, if they can order Trump to do this here, then there is NO LIMIT on them ordering him to do literally anything, no matter how insane and evil!
Right? That's how the arguments elsewhere in this thread have gone.
I think there's a decent argument to claim that Marbury v. Madison has been a slippery slope to such judicial overreach. As evidence, I'd actually point to Roberts' preference for judicial restraint: he seems aware that there isn't an inherent limit on what powers the judicial branch would claim (who would overrule them?) as long as the other branches are keen to follow along. The corollary there is that if the Court were ever to truly "reveal its power level," it might well find out it's not as high as it thinks it is. I was listening to the Louisiana v. Callais oral arguments yesterday, and it seemed like there was an implicit awareness that redistricting precedent at least in theory allows the judiciary to destroy the districts of arbitrary members of Congress, and that it needs to balance its rulings WRT the Voting Rights Act (which are IMHO not sustainable as defined mathematically) and the states' inherent political powers.
More options
Context Copy link
I have neither the time nor the inclination to write a legal opinion outlining any proposed limits of judicial interference with executive action. What I will say is that from a practical perspective, it doesn't matter. You can propose all sorts of scary scenarios you want where the president is required to wage nuclear war based on a court order for something seemingly trivial, but I'm not moved by them for the simple reason that such a system is vastly less scary than the one we're currently presumably operating under. Per the government's arguments, the president—one man—could achieve any of these insane and evil ends on a whim, with no check whatsoever other than the courage of subordinates to defy orders. The argument in favor of this position is that the president is at least elected, and thus reflects the will of the people. But leaving it to the courts is the safer option. If the courts did order the president to overthrow a foreign government it would only be after several levels of review that requires at least some consensus among multiple people. I'm not arguing that the court should necessarily have this much power, or that the president shouldn't have a large amount of discretion, but even if we take the slippery slope all the way to the bottom, I still don't see what the huge concern is relative to the existing structure.
Ok, now imagine how the current situation looks to your outgroup, and remember that they're mostly real humans who are allowed to think the same sort of thing that you just did, right here.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link