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Small-Scale Question Sunday for April 6, 2025

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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I'm pretty sure the American working class gets a better deal than the German one. American plumbers and factory workers probably both earn more and have a higher employment rate compared to their German equivalent.

Instead this is about a few left behind areas. This isn't an issue with blank slate liberalism; Western Pennsylvania didn't have blacks to compete for jobs anyways. It declined anyways. The rust belt is one of the whitest parts of the country.

I want to stop and ask- are German small towns doing that much better? It seems like everyone on earth has an issue with small towns pouring into the metropole due to lower wages. Literally. Gen. Franco couldn't stop it. Chairman Mao couldn't stop it. Donald Trump won't be able to stop it.

American plumbers and factory workers probably both earn more and have a higher employment rate compared to their German equivalent.

Don't you need to be at least a little smart to be an electrician or a plumber? Moreso if you are self-employed doing these things and making a nice amount of money?

I've done my own electrical work and plumbing at home and it requires a non-trivial amount of attention to detail and being able to do some basic computation. I probably couldn't do it stoned. Surely 100 IQ minimum needed to be employable.

Electricians have to pass trigonometry. Plumbers must be able to contort themseves into rather small, awkward spaces, which is more weight and age than IQ limited. Poster Plumber on DSL said there’s a standardized test to become an apprentice plumber in CA.

In CA, probably. In Texas if you’re a citizen you just find someone willing to hire you for a few years and then take the journeyman’s exam.

Electricians additionally need to have a record of a passing grade in algebra 2 from high school, or college algebra from community college, to be accepted for an apprenticeship. They also have to take a math for electricians class as part of it, but I don’t know what exactly is entailed(quite possibly trig).

In both cases the apprenticeship length is four years except classes and overtime can cut down on it somehow. The formulae are complicated but generally an associate’s degree cuts a year off. There’s a journeyman’s test afterwards. After a few more years you can get a master’s license to own your own company but most don’t bother.

For HVAC you get your EPA license(you can self study and just pay for a written test through HVAC suppliers) then register with the state and find someone to hire you. There’s a test to become a contractor after four years but most techs don’t bother. HVAC tends to have a much stronger commercial/residential distinction than the other two trades because it’s so easy to get into; most HVAC guys start out with residential(and usually residential installs, which is shittier work) and after some experience the smarter ones tend to switch to commercial.

Welders aren’t regulated by the state. Basically all welders go to school and get some kind of certificate, but you don’t technically need one.

In all three cases union apprenticeships have their own process which is different from the standard one but has an identical end result in the eyes of the government- the union apprenticeship is generally seen as higher quality, and union trained tradesmen tend to be paid more even if they aren’t part of the union. Trades unions themselves are basically guilds; tradesmen work for, and are paid by, the union itself and technically leased out to union shops in a temp agency like arrangement. In practice in DFW union members only switch companies when they want to.

An electrician? Yes- even low level electricians need to understand algebra to work unsupervised, making an effective IQ floor. A plumber? Depends on what you do within it. There's plenty of plumbers making a good living in, not really a sinecure because they actually work, but doing things your average handyman or construction worker would be able to do for much cheaper if it wasn't due to regulatory capture.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure that semi-skilled blue collar workers make more in America than anywhere in the EU; it's possible that genuinely low skilled workers make less, but I wouldn't count on it. The part of the American working class that's really struggling is mostly the residents of small towns in the former industrial heartland, and 'small towns in the former industrial heartland suck' isn't unique to the US.

Right, in my (anecdotal) understanding even people without these qualifications or strong brains made a decent living before globalization.

My own father and uncles came to the US in the 70s (illegally!) with a 3rd grade education and no local language skills or writing skills (in any language), got jobs as construction workers and masons and still were able to buy houses and provide for big families.

They're not dumb, as they have started small business since then and have become substantially wealthier, but the work they were doing did not require even electrician or plumber level brain power and certainly not any credentials.