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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   Edited 2yr ago   34791 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 14, 2022

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the inability of society to 'reign in' female sexuality in a healthy way contributes to almost every form of social dysfunction we observe.

Isn't it mostly men doing the rioting, heroin, shooting, looting... did I miss any?

Do you think men are more or less likely to go out rioting, shooting, or looting if they have a wife and/or kids to come home to?

Do you think men are more or less aggressive and/or desperate when they can reasonably expect that they will be able to find a long-term partner and 'settle down' with them in the near future?

Do you think that the current environment of hypercompetition in the dating market makes men more or less altruistic and conscientious?

have a wife and/or kids to come home to?

Is that what 'control of female sexuality' looks like? Isn't tying a man down and having kids controlling male sexuality?

I guess my point here is that I don't see this idea of rampant promiscuity ruining the dating market any more believable than a claim that men spending all of their time watching Minecraft streams ruining the dating market, and I definitely don't see 'dating is hard' being the main cause behind recent unraveling of the social contract.

Do you think that the current environment of hypercompetition in the dating market makes men more or less altruistic and conscientious?

I doubt that it has a large scale net effect.

Is that what 'control of female sexuality' looks like? Isn't tying a man down and having kids controlling male sexuality?

You might notice the term I used was rein in, not 'control.'

So yes, promoting the idea that both women and men should try to partner up monogamously is reining in female sexuality, in a world where they otherwise have virtually limitless partners to choose from.

I guess my point here is that I don't see this idea of rampant promiscuity ruining the dating market any more believable than a claim that men spending all of their time watching Minecraft streams ruining the dating market, and I definitely don't see 'dating is hard' being the main cause behind recent unraveling of the social contract.

It's likely a series of feedback loops that all play into each other. I said as much: "Note I'm not saying this is the ONLY condition for dysfunction (plenty of dysfunctional societies which heavily police female sexuality, cf. Iran) but just a seemingly major factor that contributes to dysfunction in the long run."

But I suspect that its similar to the obesity epidemic. Despite the prevalence of technology and prosperity making our lives easier, lots of people have worse health and less fulfilling lives than before.

So, too, is the 'ease' of connecting with potential partners causing some people to see worse outcomes. I think the evidence is clear that women are asymetrically able to exploit their sexuality for personal gain in this environment.

Hence, you'll see outsized effects by focusing on female sexuality as a causal factor.

I doubt that it has a large scale net effect.

Interesting.

Pick a source you find reliable and tell me if you still believe that after reviewing it:

https://news.unt.edu/news-releases/men-have-highest-risk-low-self-esteem-while-using-tinder-unt-study-finds

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-men/201810/are-dating-apps-damaging-our-mental-health

https://bmcpsychology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40359-020-0373-1

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/cyber.2019.0561

https://nyctherapy.com/therapists-nyc-blog/how-dating-apps-can-impact-mental-health/

You might notice the term I used was rein in, not 'control.'

Synonymous.

But I suspect that its similar to the obesity epidemic.

Hell, that might be a bigger influence than anything else, because it's making a larger and larger fraction of people unattractive, but you're still striving for an attractive partner. Just not striving in a way that includes reducing calories.

I still don't understand how you're seeing a scenario where young women go after older men as entirely the fault of women or their sexuality and not a mutual decision made by both men and women.

'Dating apps are bad for nental health' isn't automatically a support for the notion that unrestrained female sexuality is responsible for societal ills.

It is.

The response to rioting, heroin, shooting, and looting from other men, on balance, tends to be quite punitive, ranging from social abandonment to imprisonment or lethal violence. Men are much more willing, on balance, to see wrongdoers come to a bad end, and this tends to put a cap on the consequences of such maladaptive behavior.

Pretty sure the anti-feminist case here manages to blame women for it in some roundabout way, just like the feminists will lay all the world's ills at the feet of the patriarchy. Let me try: Low-status men are dissolute and violent because women restrict access to sex and marriage in favor of building harems for a small number of high-status men. Isn't that a common argument?

My personal view differs somewhat: Both men and women are dissolute, but only men are violent because women are physically weak and vulnerable. The cause for the dissoluteness is classic civilizational decline - we morally decay because, at our peak, we could afford to, and it was pleasant to do so.

Isn't that a common argument?

Not a particularly compelling one. I don't know any women who would settle for being part of a harem in favor of being married to a comparatively lower status man.

I think there's this imagination that all the instances of Man not having sex have been replaced 1:1 with woman having sex with Chad.

I think reality is more like: both the man and the woman in the equation are picking a more convenient way to pass the time and unwilling to make themselves uncomfortable to find a partner.

Your competition isn't Chad, it's Netflix.

I don't know any women who would settle for being part of a harem in favor of being married to a comparatively lower status man.

Lemme help you out here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-the-name-love/202006/why-sugar-daddy-relationships-are-the-rise

Do you ever wonder how Leonardo DiCaprio is able to just keep dating a series of young women? Why do they put up with being his arm candy for a few years rather than marrying a 'lower status' man?

I think reality is more like: both the man and the woman in the equation are picking a more convenient way to pass the time and unwilling to make themselves uncomfortable to find a partner.

Surely a factor. However, I don't think it obviates the fact that women can leverage their sexuality to their advantage from an early age.

Especially if women have virtually no obstacles to finding a partner of virtually any age or description if they so desire, whereas an average man is going to have to leap through a dozen hoops just to get considered.

Consider:

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/age-gap-dating

Men are more likely to have dated someone 10+ years younger than them compared to women (25% vs. 14%). Meanwhile, women are more likely to have dated someone 10+ years older than them compared to men (28% vs. 21%).

And when it comes to actual marriages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships#Statistics

Approximately 8% of married couples feature a male who is 10+ years older than the female. For the reverse: 1.7%. A 4x disparity.

This really, REAAALLLY strongly implies that the group that is least able to find partners is young males, and possibly older females.

And that likely means a large disparity in who is having sex, with a certain subset of the population likely have none at all, despite wanting to.

Why do they put up with being his arm candy for a few years rather than marrying a 'lower status' man?

Because Leo was in Titanic and gives them a ladyboner. I imagine that's also the reason Leo goes after a particular demographic-he finds them attractive. I assume that most of those partners will eventually end up married.

Especially if women have virtually no obstacles to finding a partner of virtually any age or description if they so desire

And yet they... don't. So either they have very particular preferences, they aren't motivated to call your bluff, or there are some obstacles that you don't see, such as social consequences.

the group that is least able to find partners is young males, and possibly older females.

Young men will eventually become old men, old women were once young women. Have people become less patient?

And yet they... don't.

Many many do. This is why the term "Sugar Baby" is now mainstream. This is why Onlyfans is a multi-billion dollar company

And the larger point is they have this as an option.

Many men don't even have the option.

Young men will eventually become old men, old women were once young women. Have people become less patient?

I already did this discussion here:

https://www.themotte.org/post/120/culture-war-roundup-for-the-week/18954?context=8#context

But the point is, you're expecting young men, who are at their horniest and least capable of making good judgments at this age, to be able to wait a decade before they can have a chance at having a committed partner.

That is, you're saying that the very guys who need some kind of healthy outlet for their sexual and other impulses are finding it increasingly difficult to obtain a healthy outlet, and saying this won't show substantial behavioral effects?

committed partner.

In my experience the majority of young men don't profess a desire for a committed partner, young women do. Maybe that's changed since I was a young man.

wait a decade before they can have a chance

Hyperbolic. Plenty of young men end up in relationships.

Also, while I agree that OnlyFans probably isn't a healthy outlet because of the parasocial aspect, there are plenty of others like pornhub, Literotica, HBO, and the power of imagination.

I think you’re right that women aren’t consciously joining “harems”, but the competition isn’t just Netflix, it’s Netflix+Tinder hookups when they get sufficiently lonely, as a replacement for relationships.

And who do they go for on tinder? The same guys as all the other single women. It’s not a “harem” because they don’t know or have a reason to care about other girls the guys might be getting with, but to lonely single men, the effect is the same.

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