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Culture War Roundup for the week of March 10, 2025

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I mean, I kinda get your point that it's the way that he thinks about it, but he also says that it gives us straightforward bounds:

A paperclip-maximizing superintelligence is nowhere near as powerful as a paperclip-maximizing time machine. The time machine can do the equivalent of buying winning lottery tickets from lottery machines that have been thermodynamically randomized; a superintelligence can’t, at least not directly without rigging the lottery or whatever.

But a paperclip-maximizing strong general superintelligence is epistemically and instrumentally efficient, relative to you, or to me. Any time we see it can get at least X paperclips by doing Y, we should expect that it gets X or more paperclips by doing Y or something that leads to even more paperclips than that, because it’s not going to miss the strategy we see.

So in that sense, searching our own brains for how a time machine would get paperclips, asking ourselves how many paperclips are in principle possible and how they could be obtained, is a way of getting our own brains to consider lower bounds on the problem without the implicit stupidity assertions that our brains unwittingly use to constrain story characters. Part of the point of telling people to think about time machines instead of superintelligences was to get past the ways they imagine superintelligences being stupid. Of course that didn’t work either, but it was worth a try.

So, I guess, like, think about the best possible plans you could come up with to put some error bars on the expected value of war. Perhaps notice that political scientists don't just ask the question, "Why is there war at all?" (...coming up with the answer involving bargaining frictions...) but also the question of why war is actually still somewhat rare, especially if we think about all of the substantive disagreements there are out there. They point out that the vast majority of wars that are started actually end surprisingly quickly, often as some information is learned in the process, a settlement is quickly reached. Superintelligences are going to be wayyyyyyyyy better at driving down those error bars and finding acceptable settlements.

This is where I'm appealing to things like the >90% draw rate in computer chess (when the starting positions are not specifically biased).

I think that's a fact particular to chess - I don't expect the same result in computer Go / othello / some other game that is less structurally prone to having draws.

I guess it's not the draws, themselves, that are "the thing". Let me try to put it another way. One of the top GMs in the world made a comment not too long ago about their experience working with very powerful computers. He said something along the lines of, "With the computer, it's always either zeros or winning." That is, he basically viewed it as that once you have enough computanium, for many many many positions, either the computer sees a way to essentially just straight equalize or it can see out to a win. Now, obviously, this is not strictly true, and it's obviously not true in all positions, as you get closer to the start of the game. But they can see the expected outcome sooo vastly better than we can. In the same way that people want to blow up that ability to things like "can engage in warfare sooo vastly better than we can", it should also blow up their ability to see expected outcomes and come to negotiated settlements sooo vastly better than we can.

I don't see how improvement in those models means that there is a reachable point where winning strategies switch from being based on deception and trickery to being based on cooperation stemming from mutual knowledge of each others' strategies

The attempted resolution in the financial markets paradox is that people just stop investing in more information. Could they double down on deception and trickery? Perhaps. But that seems like an unlikely result, game-theoretically. "Babbling equilibrium" or "cheap talk" are sometimes invoked, depending on the specific formalization. There are others that aren't in that wiki article. I could walk through a bunch of different models for how humans try to deal with deception and trickery in different domains. Presumably a superintelligence will know all of them and more... and execute even better in implementing them. It took me a long time to realize this, but when you think of deception and trickery as part of the strategy set, then the correct game-theoretic notion of equilibrium is not necessarily "cooperation stemming from mutual knowledge of each others' strategy", but "the appropriate equilibrium stemming from mutual knowledge of each others' strategy, which may contain deception and trickery, and you are each reasoning about the other's ability to engage in deception and trickery, the value the other may obtain from such, etc." Of course I know that my opponent may try deception and trickery, so I need to reason about it. A superintelligence will reason about it even better. Probably the easiest thing to think about here is again the game Diplomacy.

Where the mere game of Diplomacy differs from actual war in the real world is that we have good reason to believe that the costs of engaging in war are much much much higher, so we have a very big bargaining range, and we need quite significant bargaining frictions to get in the way. I still don't see how a superintelligence doesn't reduce the bargaining friction.

Superintelligences are going to be wayyyyyyyyy better at driving down those error bars and finding acceptable settlements. [...] I still don't see how a superintelligence doesn't reduce the bargaining friction.

I hope you're right about that. I worry that a lot of the dynamics around retaliation and precommitment are anti-inductive, and as such the difficulty of determining where the bright lines actually are scales with the sophistication of the actors. This would happen because a hostile actor will go right up to the line of "most aggressive behavior that will not result in retaliation" but not cross said line, so it becomes advantageous to be a little unclear about where that line is, and that lack of clarity will be calibrated to your adversaries not to some absolute baseline. And this is the sense in which I don't see a reachable point where honesty and bargaining come to strictly dominate.

As a note I do expect that bargaining frictions will be reduced, but the existential question is whether they will be reduced by a factor large enough to compensate for the increased destructiveness of a conflict that escalates out of control. Signs look hopeful so far but our sample size is still small. Certainly not a large enough sample size that I would conclude

The omniscient AIs will be able to plan everything out so far, so perfectly, that they will simply know what the result will be. Not necessarily all draws, but they'll know the expected outcome of war. And they'll know the costs. And they'll have no bargaining frictions in terms of uncertainties.

Only a couple minor responses, as I think we're mostly understanding each other.

this is the sense in which I don't see a reachable point where honesty and bargaining come to strictly dominate.

My only quibble is that I don't think we really need the "honesty and" part. The question really is whether, even with dishonesty, bargaining can be achieved.

As a note I do expect that bargaining frictions will be reduced, but the existential question is whether they will be reduced by a factor large enough to compensate for the increased destructiveness of a conflict that escalates out of control.

The weirdly good thing about the increase in destructiveness ("good" only in the narrow sense of bargaining and likelihood of war, not necessarily in general) is that this increases costs to both sides in the event of war. As such, it increases the range of possible bargaining solutions that keep the peace. Both factors (this and the reduced bargaining frictions) should decrease the likelihood of war.