site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 24, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

*Western politicians are scary. Almost every real-life interaction I had with one felt like a Voice of Saruman moment.

Can you give more detail on an example? I havent met any top-brass, but so far thats not my impression.

Hard to do more recent ones for opsec reasons, but as a schoolkid on a school newspaper I once somehow (fun story in itself, but unfortunately also an opsec issue) got to interview Otto Schily, then-minister of interior of Germany. Being your run-of-the-mill vaguely anarchy-sympathising student, I considered him a natural enemy, and he spouted nothing but the tritest platitudes on the subject of the interview, but I was enthralled in more or less exactly the LotR way (Wow. This kindly old man is so likeable. Surely he has $problem under control. I should just listen and thank him. Everything will be all right.) and completely failed to even try to question the non-answers. After it ended, I looked over my notes, reflected on the incongruous feeling that can only be described as afterglow, and wondered wtf just happened.

Hm. Any theories on why it happens in person, but not hearing them otherwise?

Apart from some really out-there ones like unusually agreeable pheromones, my best guess would be that it involves rapport-building body language. There are at least two schools of analysing and optimising microexpressions to control another person's impression of you (police interrogators and pick-up artists), starting with trickery like "mimic their posture" or "cross your legs so that the upper of the legs points towards them" that is not particularly subtle but already below the level of what someone not deliberately paying attention would notice. If any of this is effective, it would make sense to me if top politicians are pretty heavily selected for natural aptitude at it. As with the two "trickery" examples, the most effective tricks may require physical presence and attuning to an individual target.

I guess Im surprised that this worked on someone like you. Im a bit unsure if my own weirdness is more autistic or sociopathic, maybe that has something to do with it.

If any of this is effective, it would make sense to me if top politicians are pretty heavily selected for natural aptitude at it.

It would certainly help, but a lot of politics is also about doing well in impersonal interactions, more so the higher you go. Where you would really expect a lot of this is someone who sells things, but at a high enough level that you wouldnt just call him a salesman. Maybe someone like Trump.

I was very good friends with a girl who was a die hard, life-long Democrat. Like, door-to-door campaigning in middle school, joking about how much she'd like to be Bill Clinton's intern in the mid-00s, etc. I went to college with her and she spent her days preparing to be Leslie Knope and tangling with [famous conservative firebrand]. Her first real job in politics was somehow as an intern for a red state Republican senator, and she came back absolutely gushing about him. They had fun chats and he gave her a cute pet name and everything!

I was just flabbergasted. "Senator [recognizable name]? Neocon, evangelical fundamentalist, anti-gay, anti-abortion, Iraq War-supporting Senator [recognizable name]? I'm not mixing him up with some other Senator [recognizable name]?"

And she'd just cheerfully go "Yeah, him! Great guy."

Voice of Saurman is a solid analogy.

Even famously poor charisma politicians like Al Gore will totally eat the ego of an average person, especially if the meeting is accompanied by the accoutrements.