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I mean, there is a lot of subtext when you actually answer, yeah, why didn't anyone stop Putin in 2014? Because the answer, nakedly, is "Because Ukraine isn't worth it." It wasn't worth it to anyone. It wasn't worth it to Obama, it wasn't worth it to Europe that bought cheap Russian carbon energy for the next 7 years, it wasn't worth it to anyone.
Why was it worth it in 2022? It's hard to look past the deranging effect attacks on Trump along the Russian axis had on people. None of the moral, political, or economic calculus has changed since 2014. The only thing that changed is Trump and Russiagate. You also had a lot of warmongers with nothing to do since Biden forced them to quit Afghanistan.
It doesn't seem like Zelensky knows this. He thinks he's been able to get anything he wants because of the merit of his cause. He doesn't realize he's been riding the coat tails of TDS.
So, what part of that should have caused negotiations to blow up? The part where we are only in this mess because the American Intelligence services fabricated a criminal conspiracy involving their commander in chief. The part where Zelensky presumed he was in any position to ask for anything from anyone. The part where he failed to adequately appreciate why hatred for the man across from him was the only reason he got anything in the first place.
Putin failed to provide a fait accompli that made interference seem pointless and/or Biden isn't Obama?
And, of course, "we thought he'd be restrained and stick to Crimea" appears stupid in hindsight but isn't exactly unthinkable.
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I think it's worth synthesizing this with the claim elsewhere in the thread that Obama took an unusually mild response to the 2014 invasion in order to stand by his infamously pro-Russia line in the 2012 debate with Romney.
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Let's take everything you're saying at face value and I'll concede what I'd otherwise consider dubious or false claims in your post.
What do you think the point of even inviting Zelensky was? What concessions was the US expecting that he didn’t offer? What SHOULD he have said in that meeting to make things go more smoothly? What part of that indicated that Zelensky was, in the moment, changing the terms of any deal the US and Ukraine had planned to agree to? All he did was point out that Russia can't be trusted to hold to the terms of a peace deal and that Russia will not be a good ally to the US long term. He was calm and defferential in the dace of a lot of insults. The things you just talked about have nothing to do with what Zelensky said or did in that meeting. He said thank you over and over again and didn't argue with any offensive comments made toward him peraonally. All he did was point out that Russia isn't a trustworthy ally, which aside from Trump, the US generally acknowledges. So what did you expect Zelensky to do differently TODAY and why?
Well, I'm seeing this analysis making the rounds. Judge for yourself. It's long, I've abbreviated it slightly.
Richard Hanania
All of this drama went down while I'm on a flight and I can't watch video right now, so I'm left with everyone else's takes. I love Hanania but am often surprised by how wildly he misreads emotions and facial expressions (he's admittedly autistic, no?)
Has anyone watched the full 40 minute video? Is this an accurate representation?
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I don't really see what this adds to the discussion. I mean, if we start from the framing that Zelensky suddenly became hostile out of nowhere, then, yeah, that would make Trump and Vance upset. My entire contention has been that that's very clearly not what happened, though. When I tried to point out that Zelensky didn't appear remotely hostile to me, you said something about this whole situation being caused American intelligence fabricating evidence against Trump. And when I effectively asked "OK, but what part of what Zelensky did in the meeting was actually hostile," you posted someone stating that Zelensky was hostile. Like, sure, I know you think that already, but you still haven't shown why saying Putin is untrustworthy should be interpreted that way by the US. I know that was the mo.ent JD Vance chose to put on a (very obvious, IMO) show for the cameras, but it’s kind of absurd.
Q: What part of that indicated that Zelensky was, in the moment, changing the terms of any deal the US and Ukraine had planned to agree to?
Hanania: In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war.
Q: All he did was point out that Russia isn't a trustworthy ally, which aside from Trump, the US generally acknowledges.
Hanania: He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this?
Q: So what did you expect Zelensky to do differently TODAY and why?
Hanania: Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument.
My own Answer: Literally anything than repeatedly contradicting his benefactor, in the White House, live to his own media.
Hopefully that makes things easier to understand.
Well, Ive got to pick up dinner, so i can't spend much more time on this, but I'll send a quick response befor I head out.
First of all, I had assumed you quoted everything you consider relevant to this discussion. Clearly that wasn't the case, so I'll look at the additional context you just provided.
For Q1, I'll have to watch the first 40 minutes at some point to make an informed judgment here. I can think of many reasons why this wouldn't be unreasonable--for example, the negotiated deal contains no security guarantees to Ukrain and no promise of support. My assumption is that Zelensky was hoping it would be an in to negotiate further support. It's possible that he did this in an unreasonable way--granted I haven’t personally watched it so I cant say for sure--but in itself, this is how normal negotiation works. He agreed to something that doesn’t really benefit Ukraine with hopes of getting something more in the future. And again, it's certainly possible that he did this in a blatantly offensive and unreasonable way. Based on what I've seen, I doubt it, but I'd have to watch it myself.
Q2: Why on earth would you do this? It seemed blatently apparent to me from the course of the conversation. I will reiterate my take on it that I already posted:
Vance: Negotiate. Zelensky: We tried and it didn't work. What do you want us to do? Vance: Negotiate for peace, loser. Zelensky: But Russia brome our peace deal last time Vance: How dare you talk to us lime that?
I mean, if your take is different, fine, but don't just expect me to take it as a given that I'm going to agree that what appears to me as the obviosuly correct interpretation of events is wrong.
Q3: Again, I'm not seeing it. I know this is your take and apparently Hanania's, but as I keep saying, it does not look like that's what happened to me at all.
Anyway, I hate typing on my.phone and I have to get going.
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