This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Why should a government agency need permission to access your data? I guess that's a question whose answer hinges on your opinion of the government and what its limits should be. But if you're okay with the FBI and the IRS and the NSA looking up anyone they want any time for any reason, sure, then federal employees should not be immune. Or are you arguing that by virtue of being a federal employee, you should not have the same privacy rights as other US citizens?
Why should the executive not be able to look up employee PI like emails.
Just like my CEO can look at my email and give it to anyone they damn want to in their company why can’t the president do the same?
It's not the President asking for the information, it's an anonymous email from OPM. Which, contrary to what people keep saying, is not the "HR department" for the federal government. They have zero authoriity to do this. Musk does not have unlimited authority, transferable to whoever he has sending emails from OPM, because Trump told him to "be more aggressive."
If they are executing a request from the President, the President needs to say so.
The President can presumably ask for anyone's .gov email address, but that's not what's happening here.
Sure you can say those things. It doesn’t make it true. Again you are suggesting that the OPM (an executive department within the WH) can’t get employee emails?
Are you sure they have zero authority?
Clearly the OPM can get emails because they spammed every .gov email they could get. I am sure that the OPM does not have the authority to demand activity reports from other agencies or threaten to fire people outside the OPM itself.
That's assuming we're actually following the law, that is. If you're asking me "Are you sure they can't get away with doing whatever Musk wants them to do because lol", no, I'm not sure. You can certainly take the position that laws are just words, words, words. It seems to be a pretty popular sentiment right now. May the victory you think this is prove to be so. I have doubts.
You and I continue to go down this silly path where you ascribe to me the belief that I think laws should be broken and I’m saying the laws aren’t really law because they violate the constitution.
Even if I bought your Unitary Executive Theory, the President has not issued any orders to the effect that OPM is now in charge of every other government agency. It's literally just Elon Musk issuing orders to his DOGE minions, who then send emails from OPM.
If Trump does indeed issue an Executive Order to that effect, or some new EO saying "Effective immediately, all federal employees with SSNs ending in an odd number are fired," it's at least a test of your theory. But just claiming everything you do is legal because the President said on Twitter that you're doing a great job is not.
You are assuming the president didn’t sign off on this. Trump and Elon said they talk daily. If Trump told Elon he should do this then does that change your mind?
Yes and no. First, "signed off on it" means literally puts his name on it. If Elon wants to send out emails that are supposed to have the weight of presidential authority, he needs to show that they actually have presidential authority. Are the heads of every government agency just supposed to assume that anything Elon says is effectively a presidential order? Lots of people talk to the president daily, but that doesn't mean all the president's friends can order federal agencies around.
If Trump issues an EO tomorrow saying "Yes, in fact, everything Elon Musk says is a presidential directive" (or at least, "All federal employees must respond to the OPM email or be fired") then we're back to testing your Unitary Executive Theory. But up to this point, agencies telling their employees not to respond to the OPM emails while they handle it are not, as several people here have suggested, committing treason or insubordination. They are being perfectly sensible in reacting to a ridiculous and probably illegal demand.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link