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PaperclipPerfector  8d ago (text post)   33128 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 24, 2025

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Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”

This is clearly an advocacy for European-style hate speech laws. No doubt my speech should be considered "incitement to intolerance" and criminal according to Karl Popper. I'll add here that Popper is Jewish, so there's an ethnic, self-serving undercurrent to his demand for criminalizing incitement to intolerance. Of course a foreigner going to a foreign land is going to demand the people who live in that country are tolerant of people like him. He doesn't have their best interests at heart.

I would agree it's ambiguous if Popper would support antifa, although Popper himself engaged in street violence as a Marxist in Vienna in 1919. Preaches Marxism in Austria, then immigrates to Britain and preaches the Open Society. Many such cases.

When Popper says intolerance here, he means intolerance of disagreement, not hate speech. Hence "but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols". This isn't just random padding but Popper is describing what exactly is the difference between what he views as tolerance and intolerance. And it has nothing to do with hate speech. In his view an intolerant philosophy is one that:

  • Rejects rational argument
  • Rejects all criticism as illegitimate
  • Advocates violence against opponents
  • Aims to suppress other philosophies

That progressives decide to misconstrue this to make themselves the benefactors of the paradox is their fault, not Popper's. He'd recognise a desire to suppress whatever is deemed to be "hate speech" as intolerant, rather than those accused of hate speech.

Edit: Looks like this was already pointed out below.

Popper's analysis was centered on critique of exclusionary racialism, motivated by Nazism. He considered that to be intolerant. He is supporting outlawing that perspective as Intolerant.

The idea he would be on the side of racial nationalists for having a right to free speech, and against European hate speech laws, is not at all supported by the text.

No, Popper's analysis is centred on critique of Plato and historicism, the idea that history is controlled by historical laws that can be used to predict the future. He links racialism to this as a theory of history that proposes that a certain race is destined to inherit the Earth, but it's not centred on this.

It's pretty clear that racialism falls ideologically under "intolerant" according to Popper, and certainly according to the prevailing political understanding.

Popper's writing certainly suggests he would support suppressing racialism in order to preserve tolerance.

This is clearly an advocacy for European-style hate speech laws.

This must be the famous "horseshoe theory" I've been hearing so much about. You're literally taking the anti-racist hate-speech-law-enjoyer bastardization of what Popper said, and going "yup! that's what he meant", when he was saying the polar opposite. The words you quote yourself contradict your interpretation:

for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

He's talking about people who would shut off rational debate, not people arguing for a national community. If he's arguing for suppressing anyone, it's advocates of hate speech laws.

Popper is the mentor of George Soros. The quote Secure Signals brings up does qualify as supporting prosecuting people who preach intolerant views. The interpretation of Popper's quote that allows less wiggle room for abuse is not the only interpretation that can be inferred from hiswords. And would lead to force being used if such ideologies aren't sufficiently unpopular.

It had been a long time but I read part of his book until I lost interest and my impression is that a) he is more selective in how he applies it than modern antifa types would be b) the open society is about a specific ideological vision that is in fact hostile to nationalism.

Advocates of hate speech laws include those who like Popper are using rhetoric that would apply in more selective cases but want it to be used in a more wide manner. Basically, who are hiding their power level and playing motte and bailey games. But as it is, what he actually says can be understood to be used to suppress people even if he wrote qualifiers.

That this guy was the mentor of George Soros in it self counts against him though and should play at least a little role in how we evaluate what he was after. But even what he actually has written is rhetoric that very easily can lead to hate speech laws and basically people who share his ideological vision trying to suppress opposition to open society that is declared as intolerant, because it is too conservative, nationalist, etc.

This must be the famous "horseshoe theory" I've been hearing so much about.

Maybe people whose radicalism is underestimated in Popper and MLK being so well accepted is part of why the mainstream has fallen so much to the far left.

Yes, and leftists accuse people like me (and others on the DR) of doing that all the time. It's easy to just accuse your opponent of "not being prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument." You are just avoiding this part of the quote, which is the most unambiguous part:

We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

"Incitement to tolerance" is exactly European-style hate speech laws.

It's easy to just accuse your opponent of "not being prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument."

It's also easy to say 1+1=3, but this doesn't mean we should throw out all of maths. They are obviously wrong. European governments imprison people for hate speech. They do not imprison people for supporting hate speech laws.

Yes, and leftists accuse people like me (and others on the DR) of doing that all the time.

And what is Popper supposed to do about that?

Don't get me wrong, I think liberals were writing checks they couldn't cash (they were assuming they will always win a rational argument, and therefore won't need suppression as long as they can debate), but that's another thing than outright advocating for banning specific positions, which is what you're accusing them of.

You are just avoiding this part of the quote, which is the most unambiguous part:

I disagree that it's unambiguous, "intolerance" can mean a lot of things. "Not being prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument" is a lot more descriptive, and therefore more strict, which makes it a lot harder to accuse your opponent of.

And what is Popper supposed to do about that?

What Popper is doing is pathologizing criticism of the outgroup, except for his own outgroup. This has been the bedrock of post-WWII moral consensus. It's the foundation of Critical Theory and the study of The Authoritarian Personality.

The syllogism is foundational to Critical Theory: racism and antisemitism is a psychopathology with no rational basis (note this is not proven, it's just taken as an unassailable assumption). So any engagement in that behavior is ipso facto irrational. So if you criminalize "irrational intolerance" you are criminalizing racism and anti-semitism. Although Popper suggests the risk of violence from "intolerance" he is unequivocally advocating for criminalizing "incitement of intolerance." He says this directly, he's not saying to only criminalize intolerance if it's physically violent.

It directly follows from Popper and Critical Theory that Gentiles criticizing Jewish culture and morality is a psychopathology and intolerant, whereas Jews criticizing Gentile culture and morality is rational and preaching tolerance.

"We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law." Those are his words.

Popper is pretty much as opposite a Critical Theorist as it's possible to be. He's a frequent source for arguments against Critical Theory, even.

The Authoritarian Personality is not at all far from Popper, it also relates anti-authoritarianism to anti-nativism and proposes those emotions as threatening.

Using a book that was not written by Popper, or referring to anything written by Popper, to figure out what Popper thinks is a bad idea. Adorno is not Popper.

Both relate anti-authoritarianism to anti-nativism. Do you think Popper would support the political system allowing a racialist movement a public platform, to organize and achieve political power? He clearly wouldn't, the idea that the Paradox of Intolerance means he would be on the side of the political rights of the racialists against antifa is absurd. Antifa has a better reading of it than you do. Not to say he would necessarily support BLM riots or whatever. But he is motivated to suppress racialism just like Adorno.

What Popper is doing is pathologizing criticism of the outgroup, except for his own outgroup.

You haven't pointed to where he is doing it. You've pointed to him doing the opposite.

This has been the bedrock of post-WWII moral consensus. It's the foundation of Critical Theory and the study of The Authoritarian Personality.

Is Popper a Critical Theorist, or a member of the Frankfurt School? It's the first I'd hear about that.

Although Popper suggests the risk of violence from "intolerance" he is unequivocally advocating for criminalizing "incitement of intolerance." He says this directly, he's not saying to only criminalize intolerance if it's physically violent.

I don't see where you're getting it from. The direct interpretation of his words is that "intolerance" is defined as denouncing all argument, and forbidding followers to listen to rational argument.

"We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law." Those are his words.

I know. You've quoted the entire paragraph. There are other words there too, ones that contradict your interpretation.

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