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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   31474 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 7, 2022

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Ethics question: how evil would it be to develop a payload for a mechanically suitable off-the-shelf remote-control multirotor drone that would enable a remote user to pierce a car or truck tire and render it irreparably leaky?

For numbers, let's say:

  • the drone is viably controllable up to a quarter-mile from an off-the-shelf controller station (read: phone or lap, maybe with a radio dongle)

  • the drone is not autonomous outside basic flight stability and safety features to other humans, so it has to be guided to a tire and the knife triggered by the user

  • the knife can be triggered 4 times per flight

  • the drone's battery and knife can be replenished within a minute by the user

  • the knife is captive, so it can't hurt anything the drone isn't immediately adjacent to, and magically can't be modified to do otherwise by end users.

  • the drone and ground station are readily replaceable for <$10K, so accessible for a small organization or an org with donors, but not a typical individual.

This is prompted by my trying to inhabit the viewpoint of modern dirtbag left activists, such as those who protest by gluing themselves to roads and suchlike.

Factors I can think of offhand:

  • This enables grassroots enforcement of no-car, no-truck zones for the anarchistically-inclined

  • This makes destruction of property safer for the perpetrator

  • This enables wider-scale destruction of property viable for a single user

  • The payload designer isn't hard to replace, since the payload is easy to design, but the payload only needs to be designed once and then plans distributed

  • Obviously, this makes hit-and-run violence easier and safer, but that rate is already low and dropping, but maybe someone out there is only held back from a spree by having to be present for the attacks in person? If so, why aren't they a sniper on a spree already?

  • Once the payload is built, how much harder is making the entire thing autonomous? To the degree of "here's a car-shaped thing, slice the tires"? "Here's a geofenced area, slice the tires of all car-shaped things in it"? "Here's a geofenced area, slice the tires of all cars without a badge"?

The biggest issue is noise. A multirotor drone buzzes like a swarm of giant hornets, you won't be able to sneak up on more than one car. And a drone flying at knee height is a very vulnerable target.

I think the mechanics of doing it without enabling a lot of much more dangerous things are a lot harder than you'd expect, in ways that you don't expect (that 10k minimum price is actually pretty high!). The good news is that true autonomy is very hard, right now: the minimum power and payload for live YOLO processing starts around 500 USD, 15 watts, and the better part of a pound, which is actually kinda rough for a small drone you want to have moderate range, and probably isn't enough for what you want. But these may not stay hard for long, and close-enough autonomy might be closer.

But I'm pro-Defense Distributed and pro-Cathode_g, so I'm not opposed to it just because of that. Outside of the general "driven by the beauty of our weapons" problems:

  • Tools aren't limited to the scenarios you'd design them for. Expect to see them used not just around an existing permanent zone, but also just as short-term punishments for areas where opposed groups are (or are believed) to congregate. At 10k USD against 350-500 USD per set of tires, an area with 30 cars becomes a target, and that includes even moderately sized political meetings, nevermind something broader like a convention center.

  • Expect to see them used as parts of broader scenarios: eg, blocking a road with protesters and then causing many cars stuck in the traffic to get stuck with four popped tires, or (more morbidly) to block evacuations from more direct attacks.

  • Tools aren't limited to their use by the people you want to use them. That is, expect everyone from tire salesman to anti-public-transport activists to wackos trying to take over a wildlife refuge to use them, on everything that holds a fluid or gas in a thin and less-than-steel-hard shell. And some of the addon threats are things that could not be done with a rifle: there are some things in this category that are 'virtue of silence' materials because they could result in hundreds of indirect deaths per event, without the knowing intent of the 'activist'.

  • Mental frameworks for a threat are sometimes as important as the physical capabilities, for better and for ill: 'school shootings' are the most overt example of using old technology for awful ends and having a massive uptick because the concept entered the realm of the possible, but I think this is also part of why post-DC sniper attacks aren't discussed prominently anymore. But the nature of your proposal will provide a mental framework that can be readily adapted.

Hmm. Some of these asks are a bit contradictory.

Okay, I was about ready to dive into engineering options, culture war be damned, when I realized you were asking about the ethics. Setting aside the plausibility of a weapon which can slash 4 tires but not a human eyeball, this is a pretty unwholesome device.

The cost of 4 tires, or even 40, is not actually all that high. This device isn't a game-changer for wholesale destruction compared to something like gasoline. Instead, it's quite targeted, and It's also strictly less useful for legitimate purposes, meaning I'd expect it to be regulated pretty heavily.

Outside of niche law-enforcement usage, it is best suited for vandalism and vigilantism, AKA enforcing one's will on others or their property. I count no-car anarchist compounds in that category, though I really doubt they're a large contingent.

From an engineering perspective, this isn't viable without a gun or gun surrogate mounted on the drone. Piercing a car tire is difficult; it requires a lot of force. A multi-rotor drone simply isn't able to generate enough horizontal force to do it with just the use of it's propellers.

you can see the recoil of a drone when a gun attached to it is fired here. I'd agree that the drone wouldn't have enough force to stab the tire. But what about something like an electric spinning saw attached to the drone. That might be able to cut the tire.

Pretty much. I was thinking captive bolt pistol.

That will just propel the drone backwards.

Same as a gun of equivalent energy, no?

I think the idea is to avoid consistent pressure like you’d need to cut. Though I’m not sure round, clean holes are a good way to cause irreparable damage.

Captive bolt guns have much less energy than projectile-throwers. In particular, a much lower velocity.

I’d think that a captive bolt driven by, say, a .22LR blank would have similar energy in the short run, assuming the same “barrel” length. So a revolver, not a rifle. Giving the bolt 100x the mass would lead to 1/10th the velocity for the same KE.

I honestly don't think drones can mount any weaponry that would generate any significant recoil impulse. Maybe dangerous laser pointers or small rockets, but at that point, you are likely to risk getting the full fury of the law dropped on you (or the wrath of the FAA, but that's probably the same thing).

That was my thought, yeah. Some style of Derringer-style action with a captive spring-loaded blade or piston, which is what drove the small handful of pierced tires between visiting a human.

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