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PaperclipPerfector  19d ago (text post)   35142 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 3, 2025

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"Fuck all y'all" is not a good life philosophy. People who try it tend to end up in unhappy places as their social credit runs out, especially if they move and no longer have the familiarity of many years to draw on. I've seen it happen, it's no joke.

Now, one should be discerning in one's friendships, and not farm one's brain out to the crowd, but that doesn't mean that paying no attention to the opinions of people you need or care about is a good idea.

Li Bai: A Beast or a God? is fun and more-or-less gets at this.

DU: But indeed, when the human race has discarded its childish moral philosophies, what else remains but self-creation?

LI: The idea that we can create ourselves is a serious error. Humans, unlike robin redbreasts and bears, are not asocial animals. Indeed, you will find that the person you are in the company of others, when you bow to convention, is often a great deal nicer than the person you dream of being, the man who throws off these chains. He refills their glasses. Nicer, wiser. Perhaps even more yourself.

What good is niceness alone on an island? Social credit is scrip, only useful for doing social things. There is value outside of the social sphere. Within it, I fundamentally disagree that you should not tell fat stupid irrational friends that they’re fat stupid and irrational, ie I disagree that lies are necessary to live in society.

Tact and sensitivity are not mealy-mouthed 'niceness' and nor are they lying, although sometimes they can disguise for cowardice.

Humans are social animals - the vast majority of what we achieve and what brings us pleasure is done in the company of others. There are few things more valuable than friends, colleagues and acquaintances who you respect, and to obtain and keep such people, you have to care about their perspective. You do not need to shout out every whim and snap judgement lest you become a creature of lies.

Consider this: if your friends are fat, stupid and irrational, why are they your friends? If they have other, redeeming qualities, why focus on the negative ones? How are they going to react to you telling them that they're fat, stupid and irrational, in those words, whenever you feel like it, because anything else would be lying? Do you really, truly think it'll turn their life around? Or are you really doing it just for yourself, because saying it makes you feel good?

Humans are social animals

To a degree. To what degree, largely up to us. Like our mating behaviours are somewhere between the lifelong monogamy of some birds and the 50-women harem season of elephant seals.

Lying is acceptable if the liee wants to be lied to, but I don’t think most people agree to be lied to. Do you ? I certainly don’t. They, like me, believe their model of the world is sound, tested, and that the truth flows into it without obstruction. They trust that their belief that they are smart and thin is actually true, instead of being artificially maintained and protected by social lies. Far from getting pleasure from ‘insulting’ them, I think I’m doing them a favour at personal cost, because some will shoot the messenger.

Hmm, how about some scissor questions?

  1. Is not saying something a lie? For example, if I notice that my friend has gained some weight, but I don't tell him so, am I lying to him? What if it's just an acquaintance?
  2. Is not giving your opinion a lie? For example, if someone proudly shows me his new car and I tell him without prompting that it's ugly, a purely subjective judgement, have I given him valuable information or have I insulted him unasked? Do you think he wanted that information?
  3. Do you think there is any difference between stating something unflattering, and conveying that information to them in a way that allows them to save face?

They, like me, believe their model of the world is sound, tested, and that the truth flows into it without obstruction.

I don't believe this about mine. Any model of the world more complex than "something exists that is thinking this thought" is capable of being swept away by sufficiently stringent devotion to truth. My worldview is like most people's: is a mixture of empirical observations seen through a subjective lens, moralisms, and lovingly constructed delusions. It is a house in which I can survive and it is like a living thing in that it is improved by some stress but destroyed by too much.

To a degree. To what degree, largely up to us. Like our mating behaviours are somewhere between the lifelong monogamy of some birds and the 50-women harem season of elephant seals.

For example, I believe that this is largely a lie lonely people tell themselves, as I did once upon a time. To quote Ripptoe on a different subject:

Physical strength is the most important thing in life. This is true whether we want it to be or not... Whereas previously our physical strength determined how much food we ate and how warm and dry we stayed, it now merely determines how well we function in these new surroundings we have crafted for ourselves as our culture has accumulated. But we are still animals – our physical existence is, in the final analysis, the only one that actually matters. A weak man is not as happy as that same man would be if he were strong. This reality is offensive to some people who would like the intellectual or spiritual to take precedence. It is instructive to see what happens to these very people as their squat strength goes up. (emphasis mine)

I believe the same is true of our social lives.

Is not saying something a lie? For example, if I notice that my friend has gained some weight, but I don't tell him so, am I lying to him?

Does he care about his weight, and mistakenly believes it has remained unchanged? If so, silence would be agreement, and so, a lie.

Is not giving your opinion a lie? For example, if someone proudly shows me his new car and I tell him without prompting that it's ugly, a purely subjective judgement, have I given him valuable information or have I insulted him unasked?

Such a conversation often includes the words ‘do you like my new car?’, that is a prompt , and you have to say it’s ugly. How does the conversation go with you? He shows you the car, says ‘it’s soooo beautiful!’ and you go ‘yes, I too find it wonderful’ (no you don’t, it’s fuckugly, that’s a lie).

Do you think there is any difference between stating something unflattering, and conveying that information to them in a way that allows them to save face?

Yes, but I don’t like it much, it’s a compromise required by human weakness. Ideally, honesty should always be forgiven.

The ‘saving face’ problem is that the conveying of information has been sullied by social status games. Some bits of information, criticism, are viewed as little arrows harming a person’s status. That is not conductive to a clear view of the world.

What are your lovingly constructed delusions? Tell me if I should lie to protect them, and I will.

For example, I believe that this is largely a lie lonely people tell themselves, as I did once upon a time.

I think your view is unfalsifiable. What if I produced a happy hermit? What if I told you I have experienced far more moments of happiness alone than in social settings?

What is modern atomization? To a large degree, people with alternatives, choosing to be alone. They could talk to their parents every day. They could go through their contacts or facebook friends and do something with a friend every day. But they choose not to. As to what little they do do, there were essentially no negative psychological consequences from covid, even though the threat and lockdowns stopped most social contact for a time.

I believe the same is true of our social lives.

So many things are the most important thing in life?

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