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PaperclipPerfector  20d ago (text post)   35154 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 3, 2025

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Yes I can. A partly liberal regime implementing an illiberal policy that fails is a failure of illiberalism. If a liberal policy failed, that would be a failure of liberalism.

Liberals implementing an illiberal policy in the name of liberalism, is a failure of liberalism. Yours is the exact same logic behind "real communism has never been tried". It's cool that what you're actually arguing is a classless society, but if your system keeps ending up as an authoritarian oligarchy or dictatorship, that's on you. Same with liberalism - it would be one thing if liberals fought for freedom of speech and lost, then you could claim that the failure belongs to illiberals, but if it's liberals fighting against freedom of speech, it's on you.

Like many liberals, I think rousseau is incorrect.

Cool, but I can't see how you can call his ideas "not liberalism".

But if you want to criticize a standard liberal position, you'd have to confront freedom of speech, equality before the law etc, directly.

I like to focus on the ideas of collective identity, collective rights, the secular state, and neutral institutions. Pretty sure those are also at the core of the standard liberal position.

Yours is the exact same logic behind "real communism has never been tried".

But liberalism has been tried and it's been terrific. I'll defend its record gladly, unlike them.

You're not judging things fairly, you're stacking the deck against liberalism. If a liberal policy fails anywhere, you reckon it's a failure of liberalism. However, if a somewhat liberal regime implements an illiberal policy and it fails, it's still a failure of liberalism. If it succeeds, failure of liberalism again.

I like to focus on the ideas of collective identity, collective rights, the secular state, and neutral institutions. Pretty sure those are also at the core of the standard liberal position.

"collective identity, collective rights" seem opposed to individual rights, which is core.

But liberalism has been tried and it's been terrific.

We were talking about whether or not things like censorship should be attributed to liberalism or illiberalism, in that regard you are doing the "true liberalism has never been tried". Just like communists claiming the USSR was not communist because by definition communism is a classless society so any dictatorial figure like Stalin or the party oligarchy being in power means it's not communism, you are claiming that liberals censoring people logically must the fault of illiberalism.

You're not judging things fairly, you're stacking the deck against liberalism.

No, U. You could make an argument like "liberalism isn't living up to it's own standards, but it's doing so better than any of the alternatives", but you're basically saying that liberalism not living up to it's own standards is impossible, and any time it looks like it might be failing to do so, it's the fault of some evil illiberal.

"collective identity, collective rights" seem opposed to individual rights, which is core.

Bear in mind, when I said "the secular state, and neutral institutions", I meant I'm against them and/or thing the idea is a pipe-dream.

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