This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I disagree strongly with this. You might be correct that many Americans would struggle to recall his name, but that’s because normal people are terrible in general at remembering names. In progressive circles, though, Roof is still routinely brought up all the time in discussions of race and policing. “If you’re a black man in America, police can murder you for minor infractions, or even for just disrespecting them. Meanwhile, if you’re a white guy who murders a bunch of black churchgoers, the police will non-violently arrest you and buy you Burger King.” Roughly a decade ago I performed the lead role in a play inspired directly by Roof — oddly, a humanizing account showing how a dumb and impressionable young kid from a broken home could be lured into extremist beliefs by a makeshift father figure showing him love and acceptance for the first time in his life. (Leave aside the fact that this doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, accurately describe Roof’s actual life or the manner of his radicalization.) So, I do think that Roof has made a lasting impact on public consciousness.
I think that if Breivik did what he did in America, rather than in Norway, he would be far more remember and talked about here. I don’t know to what extent Breivik is still discussed in Europe, but given how American media drives so much of the political discussion worldwide, I have to wonder whether Breivik would even be more remembered in Europe had he done the same crime, but in America. (The same is true of Brenton Tarrant, the Christchurch mosque shooter in New Zealand.)
Don't forget setting off a hyperstitious cascade against Confederate symbols....
More options
Context Copy link
I see your point that in progressive circles, Roof is frequently brought up. However, progressive circles are a small subset of the West's population. I have literally never heard anyone bring Roof's name up in conversation, not even ten years ago right after he killed those people. And it's not like I interact entirely with politically apathetic people or with right-wingers or something. I've interacted with plenty of progressives in the last ten years, and those murders just never came up.
You are, from what I recall you writing before, someone whose social circle is pretty hardcore progressive. The thing is, this actually makes you pretty atypical for a denizen of the West. Or anywhere in the world, for that matter. Progressives are highly represented online, but offline, even in cities where people vote overwhelmingly for Democrats, few people go around talking like the stereotypical Redditor.
I actually agree that Breivik would likely have been more remembered if he had done his murders in America, not just because America is the entire world's media focus, but also because for historical and social reasons, Europe is probably more used to the idea of a militant far-right existing than America is. In America, the idea of there actually being an effective nativist far-right killer is something from TV shows or the wild dreams of Redditors, but we haven't really had one in as long as I can remember. Some people might bring up Timothy McVeigh, but he was more of a libertarian-right mass killer, not a Breivik-style explicitly nativist one.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link