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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   32433 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 31, 2022

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I am going to have to ask for actual evidence for this. First of all, I have been in plenty of NYC subway stations, and while there are some with doors and rooms off the platforms, there is generally no room for such things in the area in view of the turnstiles. Second, there is no such thing as an unstaffed subway station in NY; although not every entrance is staffed, every station has at least one manned booth. In addition, data on fare evasion tickets is available here. The spreadsheets list tickets by station, and note that, eg, in the 4th Quarter of 2019, there were very few tickets issued at individual stations other than major ones such as 14th St or Times Sq, which are very much manned 24 hrs.

Third, each station has several turnstiles; if one has a glitch, the one next to it won't.

Also, since it is ** fare evasion** , not turnstile jumping, which is illegal, I rather doubt that I have committed a crime if I jump the turnstile while in possession of an unlimited metrocard.

Finally, the station with the highest number of tickets in 4Q 2019 was Times Sq, with 517. That is fewer than 6 per day. There are only three stations with more that 360 tickets (i.e., 4 per day). There is no way that the MTA was spending time running the operation you describe, given the paltry returns.

I am going to have to ask for actual evidence for this.

I know people this has happened to. (Not me, I don't have an unlimited)

First of all, I have been in plenty of NYC subway stations, and while there are some with doors and rooms off the platforms, there is generally no room for such things in the area in view of the turnstiles.

Yes, that's why they have a camera.

Second, there is no such thing as an unstaffed subway station in NY; although not every entrance is staffed, every station has at least one manned booth.

On paper, anyway. Even if it's actually true, going back out, maybe crossing the avenue and walking a few blocks to check all the other entrances means you're missing the next train at best.

Third, each station has several turnstiles; if one has a glitch, the one next to it won't.

I suspect what happens in these cases is the first broken turnstile activates the 18-minute wait for the pass to be used again, but fails to allow entry. This prevents use of the pass at any turnstile in that station.

Also, since it is ** fare evasion** , not turnstile jumping, which is illegal, I rather doubt that I have committed a crime if I jump the turnstile while in possession of an unlimited metrocard.

First, it's usually a civil ticket rather than a criminal offense. Second, the transit judges (who work for the MTA, naturally) have heard that argument and dismiss it.

I know people this has happened to. (Not me, I don't have an unlimited)

I am sure that there are people who have been accosted by police after jumping a broken turnstile. But that was not your claim; your claim was that the police were running a very specific operation aimed at those people.

I suspect what happens in these cases is the first broken turnstile activates the 18-minute wait for the pass to be used again, but fails to allow entry.

Again, evidence for that? Is that what your friends said? That the turnstile gave the "sorry, you can't reuse this pass yet" message? Or the "please swipe again" message?

First, it's usually a civil ticket rather than a criminal offense. Second, the transit judges (who work for the MTA, naturally) have heard that argument and dismiss it.

  1. That is probably not true; it is probably a criminal infraction. Regardless, that is irrelevant; if I did not violate the law in question, it does not matter whether it is denominated a civil penalty or a criminal infraction

  2. Again, evidence?

Again, evidence for that? Is that what your friends said? That the turnstile gave the "sorry, you can't reuse this pass yet" message? Or the "please swipe again" message?

It's been years, if they mentioned what the turnstile said I don't remember.

That is probably not true; it is probably a criminal infraction. Regardless, that is irrelevant; if I did not violate the law in question, it does not matter whether it is denominated a civil penalty or a criminal infraction[/quote]

Here is the MTA itself telling you it's a civil ticket. They're rather more reliable than a random lawyer's site. I believe it is also possible for the police to write it up as criminal (in which case you'd get a desk appearance ticket instead of a notice of violation), but they usually don't.

Again, evidence?

What, you think I have access to the records of arguments in Transit Adjudication Bureau cases?

It's been years, if they mentioned what the turnstile said I don't remember

OK, so you don't have evidence for your supposition that the gate erroneously recorded an entry without opening the gate.

Here is the MTA itself telling you it's a civil ticket. They're rather more reliable than a random lawyer's site.

Maybe so, but as noted, it is irrelevant. If I did not violate the law in question, it does not matter whether it is denominated a civil penalty or a criminal infraction

What, you think I have access to the records of arguments in Transit Adjudication Bureau cases?

I wouldn't think so. But, if you don't have access to evidence, why did you claim to know how the judges rule?

Honestly, it seems that you are making stuff up, from your initial post onward.

OK, so you don't have evidence for your supposition that the gate erroneously recorded an entry without opening the gate.

It's a conjecture that fits the evidence I do have.

Maybe so, but as noted, it is irrelevant. If I did not violate the law in question, it does not matter whether it is denominated a civil penalty or a criminal infraction

Go to NYC. Buy an unlimited metrocard. Jump the turnstile openly and notoriously with the cops right there. Repeat until you get caught.

Try your legal theory on the Transit Adjudication Bureau, and see how far it gets you. I agree it's correct, I just don't agree that the judges care.

Also, since it is ** fare evasion** , not turnstile jumping, which is illegal, I rather doubt that I have committed a crime if I jump the turnstile while in possession of an unlimited metrocard.

"A person who shall be upon a rail transit vehicle and who shall lack proof of payment of the required fare shall be presumed to be in violation of this section."

How are you going to have proof of payment if you jump the turnstile?

(Presumably if you use the card, the proof of payment is recorded in the system.)

Is the card itself not proof of payment? It's not like it would be hard to validate that it's a real unlimited pass, rather than a forgery.

The claim was specifically re an unlimited metrocard, eg a monthly or weekly pass. That is per se proof of payment.

How are you going to have proof of payment if you jump the turnstile?

Because you're holding a valid unlimited metrocard.

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