This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
So voting works, we’re definitely done with all the nonsense about elites controlling everything and democracy being a sham? Okay, next.
They did. Some, like our progenitor, in a rather ‘conflict avoidant’ way. Not my style, but still. Or did HBD warriors use their fists beat up on their enemies until they gave up?
Sure, but that necessarily means that discussion doesn't.
> A billionaire very likely changed the result of the election by buying a communications platform
> "we’re definitely done with all the nonsense about elites controlling everything and democracy being a sham?"
How? Why?
He didn't. He got bullied into keeping his mouth shut, and into personally shutting the mouths of anyone who agreed with him, until Trump won.
People, a large part of which knows nothing about HBD, used their votes to take away power from people who were censoring and terrorizing HBDers.
Why? Is discussion incompatible with democracy?
According to the previous alt right theory, “‘the elites” were acting collectively, in a specifically “‘New York Times” direction, against the wishes of the masses, always successfully. It wasn't predicting an isolated eliteman taking a turn to the right with popular support.
Although maybe that’s a caricature of alt right thinking on my part. A caricature of my position would be that billionaires/elites are just as influential as normal people.
That’s not what Moldbug’s theory was. Moldbug’s theory was always that a lot of ‘nominal’ elites were successful finance/tech/etc people who had a lot of money but were actually subordinate in power terms to a class of people who cared more about politics.
More options
Context Copy link
Maybe we could discuss the actual merits of, say, de Mesquita et al.'s theory of the selectorate held against modern incarnations of Elite Theory instead of pretending that a school of political analysis that dates back to Polybius is a machination of a barely extant US political movement?
Who knows, we may well learn something.
More options
Context Copy link
You gave "Voting doesn’t matter" along with "Discussion is pointless/conflict theory" as points that disprove the dissident right narrative. In the case we are discussing (I should have pointed out that "necessarily" was still meant in the context of the conversation, not universally) voting mattering is a direct consequences of discussion yielding no results, while a political victory caused a massive shift.
If discussion yielded results, it's not clear that voting would have mattered.
EDIT: actually let be more brief - when you are not voting on the issue that's being discussed, but the vote has a huge impact on the truth triumphing, while discussion has almost none, then the discussion not mattering results directly from voting mattering.
Well, perhaps you can outline what your actual position is, and then I can properly respond to it? You've been mostly focused on caricaturing the right, rather than putting forward what you believe.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
You'll notice that success at the polls was conditionned on coordinated elite action. Without Elon Musk, there is no trifecta. Voting works as a coordination mechanism for existing forces, it doesn't create forces out of thin air.
You should read Michels instead of imagining caricatures of his political model.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link