This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don't think that Japanese are smarter than Britons. They perform better on IQ tests, but it is clear to me just based on examining Japanese accomplishments and Japanese history that it is unlikely that Japanese have any intelligence advantage over Britons. Historically, Britain has been vastly more innovative than Japan in math, science, and social organization. Of course there are many factors that could explain this other than Britons being smarter than Japanese, but given this discrepancy, it is also hard for me to believe that Britons are stupider than Japanese. IQ tests do not perfectly measure intelligence. For example, obviously one can get better at IQ tests by doing more of them, whereas it is much harder to raise overall intelligence by similar levels through practice.
Isn’t it possible that different populations vary in creativity levels independently of IQ? If so, it could be that East Asians are just genetically less likely to be inventors and entrepreneurs, even as they are genetically more likely to have greater raw computational power.
Of course, their form of government, system of education, and various environmental pressures may also explain the difference. I think some IQ enthusiasts tend to give too much credit to IQ and not enough to other explanatory factors.
As often as it's observed that many of these quantities are correlated, even strongly, I think compressing a notion as complex as "intelligence" to a single axis does a large disservice to the complexity of actual human skillsets. It feels like a very crude metric for what it is. Maybe with AGI approaching we'll gain a better understanding of what "intelligence" actually is, because it still feels pretty poorly-defined to me, even if I can't counter with a better suggestion.
More options
Context Copy link
Yes, the rationalist community is still unable to get past IQ obsession and recognize that thumos is just as much a function of HBD as IQ. The European cognitive profile, like everyone, is much more than IQ. Things like bravery, boldness have a basis in HBD just the same.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think you're underestimating how extraordinary recent Japanese history has been. In 1868 Japan was a feudal state with almost no modern technology or contact with the outside world. Within 4 decades it defeated a European great power in a major war. It went from 1200s England to 1900s England in the span of two generations.
Then after the entire country was reduced to ash and much of a generation killed in WWII, within three decades it was the world's second-largest economy. These are the kind of rapid, massive transformations that seem impossible were it not to have happened.
Although Japan and China have demonstrated unprecedented ability to catch up to Western technology, they have not (as of yet) been able to surpass it.
Let's check back in 20 years though. It does seem that China is now pulling ahead.
Edit: And of course China was far ahead of the West during most of the Middle Ages as well. But who knows what national IQs looked liked back then. A lot of selection has probably happened in the generations since.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Another possibility is that Britain (or Europe in general) has a wider distribution of intelligence than Japan does; more geniuses (which would explain the great feats of innovation) but also a much larger (relatively) low-IQ underclass. Japanese people seem far more clustered around an IQ and personality median than Brits are. If Britain was simply better at unlocking the potential of its small number of geniuses than Japan was, you’d get pretty much the result this theory would predict.
GEVH (Greater European Variability Hypothesis)?
More options
Context Copy link
I think it's also extremely narrow-minded to assume that intelligence will manifest itself in certain expected outcomes, with the benefit of hindsight. Even if one were to toss the notion of cultural and societal differences entirely out the window, from a purely material standpoint Japan and Britain are very different beyond the superficial similarity of them being island nations.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link