site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 13, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

the clarity of consent

There can be no "clarity of consent" because "consent" doesn't actually exist- it suggests that women are just as dominant as men are just as submissive as women (1), but then as we see a bit later...

She protested that it wasn’t hygienic. “He said, ‘Are you defying your master?’” she recalls. “I had to lick my own shit.”

...that's pretty obviously false. That's the inherent tension with having a gender whose average participant gets off on the submission- and if they start to resent that for whatever reason, and have the political power to get their top/dom jailed, then arises the incentive to abuse that power. But the fact that this woman isn't availing herself of that power that she knows (or can be reasonably expected to know, especially since she demonstrates an understanding of what the word "consent" is implying) is at her beck and call is actually quite significant, so I'd take the claim of "yeah, it sure was a time, I have made my peace that this is just how [my] sexuality works, this isn't a big enough deal so fuck off" at face value in this instance. (Actually, it kind of reminds me of this.)

But the whole charade does remind me once more of the peculiar way in which Western culture has come to insist that there is nothing problematic about sexual promiscuity.

Fundamentally, it comes down to whether you think sex (and by extension, whether or not you've made peace with the fact consent doesn't exist) is a big deal or not. The people who think sex is a big deal are unwilling or unable to deal with the fact sex no longer leads to pregnancy or disease (2); and the people who think sex has no consequences are unwilling or unable to deal with the fact that implies it's child-safe (3). And the world turns.

(1) Which makes sense, considering "consent" was manufactured by non-gender-conforming men and women in the late '80s as a reaction to the free '70s, so it's only natural those [in a purely descriptive sense] trans-gender individuals would come up with a system that doesn't match how normal human beings actually function, then get all defensive when it doesn't work.

(2) If you don't allow needle-shaped objects to penetrate your ass, you're relatively safe from the only STD of actual consequence (and even then, it's "take these pills for the rest of your life or you'll die 2 weeks after someone coughs on you", but diabetics and epileptics manage that just fine, so...). You're still going to get herpes but the cold sores are just the cost of doing your mom business.

(3) "But what if the 5 year old girl consents" is specifically meant to call out the fact that "consent" doesn't actually mean "accedes to"; the concept is, quite literally, used as a condom. It's so thin at times ("my 5 year old is trans") it feels like it's not even there, which is exactly how Trojan claims it should be.

Sex has strong emotional consequences, even if the physical ones are solved. Yes, yes, it’s not illegal to have casual sex, but it’s also not illegal to call your neighbor a giant piece of shit every time you see him.

Your message here is quite unhinged, and I mean that as a compliment, and that I enjoyed reading it. I might have misunderstood you though, as verbal intelligence is not my strong suit. I want to make sure I understand "Consent doesn't exist" correctly, are you saying that she did in fact consent because she didn't resist enough, because she enjoys submission (and therefore of having her consent overruled), or because of how human nature works fundamentally? Again, I'm genuinely interested.

I have to disagree with your assessment of the harm of sex. You're being materialistic, seemingly ignoring the psychological parts the equation. Pregnancy and disease are the physical risks. Even if sex is child-safe physically (which is theoritically possible, but rarely the case in real life scenarios), there's still psychological consequences. You can avoid some of these consequences by turning materialistic and deciding that sex isn't special, but I think that would be a shame, and that you'd fail partly (for the same reason that fighting ones own biases is impossible in a sense). It's like getting over the situation that nobody wished you happy birthday by realizing the fact that birthdays are only special if we consider them to be. In other words, birthdays aren't real. A lot of things which "exist" are just agreements, so they're a sort of collective roleplay. But if you destroy these games to get rid of their consequences, then you also lose the advantages, and your life will take another step towards emptiness/nihilism. So I just want to warn you in case this is what you're doing to your own perception of sex.

I choose to think that sex is special for aesthetic reasons, and this is not a delusion since it becomes true by believing in it, which I mean literally, and which implies that people can be hurt if they consider sex to be special and their partner does not.

(1) Which makes sense, considering "consent" was manufactured by non-gender-conforming men and women in the late '80s as a reaction to the free '70s, so it's only natural those [in a purely descriptive sense] trans-gender individuals would come up with a system that doesn't match how normal human beings actually function, then get all defensive when it doesn't work.

Can you explain that more?

that's pretty obviously false. That's the inherent tension with having a gender whose average participant gets off on the submission- and if they start to resent that for whatever reason, and have the political power to get their top/dom jailed, then arises the incentive to abuse that power.

The easy solution for men worried about this is simply not to engage in degenerate, promiscuous behavior. Oh, you got burned by a BPD whore? Shouldn’t have fucked her. The same, by the way, applies to getting in the outdoor baths of strange old men after being invited to.

I agree that it would be great if we had a society that called guys like that degenerate whoremongers. But what we actually have is one that celebrates "BPD whore behavior," and actively encourages young women to follow that script in relationships (see literally all advice column and lit fic for women from the '10s).

And we don't even condemn the whoremongering. We celebrate men for it until he ages into the Weinstein zone where imagining him holding their leash makes fangirls ick instead of tingle, then retroactively mob him for it.

It's not a coincidence that Gaiman was one of the last metoo targets, and it wasn't his fame protecting him; far more famous men got hit, and his sphere of leftist YA fantasy lit nerddom was ground zero for it. It's just that he only recently aged out of the schlick zone and became a target

(see literally all advice column and lit fic for women from the '10s).

I am genuinely curious, since advice columns aren't my thing and I'm fairly sure I wouldn't even be looking for the right ones. Could you please provide what you would consider three archetypical examples from the era?

"when having an affair is an act of self care," (it's a way for women to take back her patriarchal restrictions that have been put on us), "cheating on my husband made me a better mother," "cheating on the sisterhood: infidelity and feminism" (a third wave feminist take focuses on the individual woman and her rights to sexual pleasure), "what open marriage taught one man about feminism" (that it should be women who choose, not men, even the men they're married to)

That's four I remember off the top of my head focusing entirely on the "whore" part, but there's lots more content for the BPD bit.

I remember that at least two, possibly three, of those were specifically articles of the same Guardian writer.