site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   36635 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Musk's product range from working-I-suppose-but-wildly-overhyped to "I am confident we will have working in two years (or two years more... or two years more... or two years more...) .

I haven't paid any attention to the financials, so maybe it's all going to come crashing down

And likewise I might very well be wrong, and Musk is going to change the world, but I'm worried about a lot of contrarians I sympathize with staking their reputation on him.

I could agree that Musk has many times over-promised and under-delivered, but there's no way I can turn that into "Musk is a fraud." There's far too many actual delivered, working products for that to be anywhere close to true.

The only universe where "Musk is a fraud" would make sense is if Musk is pure front-man to a secret behind-the-scenes mastermind. He's not even a great front-man though, his presentations are often awkward and primarily engaging because of the products involved.

working-I-suppose-but-wildly-overhyped

Man, why should you care how hyped they are? Objectively I think some might actually be underhyped, but regardless, why judge accomplishments by whether you think that people under- or overestimate them? Some of these products are enormously important.

My impression is his reputation is based on the hype around his products, rather than their actual value.

For example, a lot of people are pointing to SpaceX's cost reduction, but from what I'm reading that relies on overestimating the Space Shuttle launch costs, and some creative accounting on SpaceX's side. Take out the hype, and it seems you're left with some decent rockets, that haven't revolutionized anything.

OK, look, reputation is ALWAYS based on hype rather than based on actual value. That's kind of by definition how hype and reputation work--while they may have slightly different meanings, both refer to social standing rather than actual accomplishments. So having a "reputation based on hype around his products, rather than their actual value" is just usually true of all people in general.

But sorry for being overly literal, I get that what you're saying is that the hype outpaces the actual products. I don't really agree--my understanding is that both Tesla and SpaceX really have made some pretty major advancements--but I don't know enough to argue the point. The point I was making is that if we're trying to judge a man, we should judge his accomplishments, not judge whether his accomplishments match the hype around them. It's just SO MUCH more productive to argue about whether Edison invented the lightbulb than to argue about whether he deserves 1 million or 100,000 fans for his accomplishments.

It's at least important to be familiar with "Elon time" if you're planning to be a consumer of his upcoming products.

The new orbital payload economics just from Falcon 9 have already changed the world. Starship would represent a revolution.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats