This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Why?
I want to remind about August 12, 2008 in Tbilisi. President of Poland visited it during ongoing invasion by Russia.
And yes, it was quite risky but it was done when situation was relatively stable and expanding Russia is a nightmare scenario for Poland/Estonia/Lithuania and so on. So yes, it was risky - but politicians actually did what they should be doing for once.
"journalist"
This website has following articles on its main page
Yeah, very reputable journalists. This article is likely to be true - as much as that article about Israel nuking USA on 9/11 and Beirut. To say nothing about UFO.
From this group article about "Masonic Rothschilds" and Jewish Jesuits are most likely to be true, and that is saying something.
Because prime ministers are well known for going by train into combat zones and dodging artillery shells. Yes, yes. that's what they do.
US media is tightly controlled, if you are not on message you won't get published. Hence why e.g. Steve Sailer has to publish over at unz.com.
Could you not be an NPC and look at the actual claims ?
Look at the Uke photos of the visit. Look at the railways stations photos.
I did. The article seemed to check out, and I found the idea that multiple prime ministers would make a very risky trip into a place where their train might get bombed. (gee, we thought it was carrying munitions, sorry) just plain crazy.
You've been warned four times now to stop with this low-effort, dripping-with-contempt antagonism.
This gets you a three day ban. Stop doing this.
More options
Context Copy link
Some of them do. Some of they overdo, plenty of Polish politicians died in Smoleńsk as result of overly risky visit (and in that case it was a really dumb risk).
Tbilisi and Kiev visits were more useful and ended well.
And "A very rarely do Y" is a good starting point, but not enough to convincingly reject claim that specific event happened.
I have limited time and I refuse to treat seriously website that published claim that 9/11 and Beirut explosion were an Israeli nuclear attack. I would treat it more seriously if article would be published on Substack or self-hosted website.
Reading Ukraine-adjacent conspiracy theories by you and coffee was mildly amusing but I am not going to spend a lot of time on it. Especially if it is published on garbage tier website filled with blatant low quality garbage, and by all indicators is also a garbage.
I am curious: are you claiming that Beirut and 9/11 were an Israeli nuclear attacks?
There was little threat of enemy action there. It was a typical case of politicians, being macho probably telling pilots to stop being pussies, disregard problematic weather and just land. (I don't know if this was the case but it very often is in celebrity crashes)
Going by train into a half-besieged city in the middle of the most kinetic war since '45 is something qualitatively quite different.
It was published first on as self-hosted website. The images there were improperly hosted and would not load, hence I posted the VT link.
It's also hosted on 'nakedcapitalism', whatever that is.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Why would it benefit Russia to accidentally blow up Boris Johnson? Why would the Poles hate Russia less if Duda gets got? Why would the EU change their policy after he blows up a bunch of their diplomats?
I wouldn't doubt it was communicated backchannel to Russia, because they don't want to get into a thing with NATO either.
Not Boris Johnson. Kaczynski, Fiala and Slovenian PM.
But given the performance of the Russian army so far, would you be willing to trust they'd refrain from shooting ?
Why even go into artillery range in a major war for .. no good reason, really.
They'd say NATO prime ministers have no business being deep inside a country they're fighting with and that they could've just as easily met at the border.
Which is almost certainly what happened if you look at the alleged 'Kiev' station pictures..
Really, if you go into Kiev for a photo-op, why wouldn't you take picture at some minor landmark while you're there ? Or snap a picture in front of the presidential palace they say they visited? All we got was a very carefully composed group photo in front of a train, and photos from windowless meeting rooms.
The risk is realistically very low. Even presupposing that Russia isn't actively trying to avoid killing major NATO government ministers, my opinion, the risk that any random person in Kyiv gets got on any given day is exceedingly low. It's a city of millions that has suffered civilian casualties (and military casualties from indiscriminate air strikes/artillery bombardment) in the low thousands.
Against that very low risk is a very good photo op. For the first few guys to show up, they looked like brave heroes because it did seem very risky with bad information at the time. After that, it became increasingly important for everyone else to do it, because once someone else did it, it reflected poorly on you if you didn't.
So which is it? You can't have it both ways. Either the Russians would want to kill the NATO potentates and claim it was an accident, hence they wouldn't take pictures at landmarks; or Russia doesn't want to kill them, in which case it isn't that dangerous to enter the country openly.
I tend towards the latter view. If anything, when Boris Johnson entered Kyiv he probably casts an aura of protection over the area he is in. The Russians benefit Zilch from killing a NATO minister.
We're not talking about any random person, we're talking about a train.
Civilian trains in Ukraine have been hit because they apparently put military equipment on them and Russians really do not care to fall for that kind of ploy.
Well, you think so? Most Russians would be happy that has happened.
They allegedly went into the fucking presidential palace, a distinctive building. Snapping a picture or better shooting a quick video in front of it while you are there is zero risk and would definitely prove they were there.
No picture. No video. No picture of them having been at Kiev train station either.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Also, it is not like Russia has history of performing successful precision attacks.
More options
Context Copy link
At least in my case, that would improve my opinion of Russia.
To be fair, when someone suggested Biden visit my first thought was "As long as Nancy and Kamala ride in the same car."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link