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PaperclipPerfector  12d ago (text post)   30516 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 9, 2024

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I've talked elsewhere about the whole residency and medical school slot thing. The residency length thing is a very complicated discussion.

I do want to point out there are some advantages to the U.S. system of 4+4 years. Yes lots of places do 4 or 6 years, but the ability to go through undergrad first gives you a few advantages:

-You actually have a college experience/fun. That's important!

-You are absolutely sure this is what you want. Really fucking important.

-Better balanced people - less medical school robots.

-Opens the door for career changers, who are some of the best doctors.

Medical school students who start at 18 in other countries still have a “college experience”, they’re still on campus, can still party, join clubs, whatever, they’re just doing a more intense course.

I mean preclinical years are an undergraduate class every 1-2 weeks. That pace cuts out a lot of traditional college activity. Once clinicals start you aren't on campus anymore and don't have time for fun. I'm sure this isn't the case in Europe but you can't change the work culture that easily (nor the geography which is a big piece of it).

Abolishing pre-med and pre-law does not close the door for career-changers, though. People can still do 4+4 if they want.

How would that work though? You "go back to college" instead of medical school - all the students are 18 instead of 22-26 and you do the curriculum designed with 18 year old maturity. I'm sure some people would still do it but that the amount would absolutely tank.

People "go back to college" all the time, what are you talking about? You think people wouldn't career change into medicine if it was only a 4 year thing because the curriculum being designed for 18 year olds would make it, what, too easy? Your messages in this entire thread are alien but this takes the cake.

I am not saying I don't support switching from the American model to what we do in Europe. I'm saying that you'd see a plummeting in career change applicants. Medical school isn't very much like (current) undergrad.

For example: medical education is always consolidated programs not a la carte, right now that's mildly aggravating to biochem majors who have to redo a small amount. A European model would involve redoing a lot of coursework very consistently.

I don't think career changers exist at all in Europe/elsewhere in the world.

People do that all the time. People enter undergrad after enlisting in the military, or working a few years, all the time. People take a degree part time, nights and weekends, while working. It's not crazy.

I don't think career changers exist at all in Europe/elsewhere in the world. If you have information to the contrary please share.

Uh, my understanding is that the continental Euro education system is completely different and most students are locked in to a particular set of postsecondary education(often sharply limited) by their mid-teens at the latest. Applying directly to medical school, or applying to medical school with a two year degree in biology or chemistry, shouldn't necessarily bring the entire Prussian education system with it.

Now that being said, while I assuredly do not think that making doctors get bachelor's degrees before applying to med school does anything useful, we do not live in a society where med school applicants will stop getting bachelor's degrees if it's not technically required anyways.

locked in to a particular set of postsecondary education(often sharply limited) by their mid-teens at the latest

Yes also my understanding which is why I'm concerned about killing career changers.

I mean ultimately the whole thing seems academic anyways, because med school applicants aren't going to stop getting bachelor's degrees unless actually forbidden by law for class/status reasons.

Yeah I don't think there really is a way to make this change. A common suggestion medical people have is to reduce the cost of medical school tuition to international norms which would then decrease the laser focus on higher paying specialties.

I don't think that really matters because of my thesis - MD salaries aren't the problem. Fixing supply, reorienting where people are going, etc. All distractors.

What are you talking about? Why does it matter whether people change medical careers in Europe when people change careers in America all the time despite needing a new degree?

If doctors don't change careers in Europe that would tell us more about Europe and it's education system and career choices than it would about how it would go in America, right?

I'm saying we will lose career changers if we make the system change from American to European? If there aren't any in Europe that is good evidence if we make our system European, no?

Or it might be evidence that career changers are rarer in Europe in general for engineers and programmers and lawyers and everything else for a variety of social reasons.

American colleges typically feature many undergrads in their 20s and 30s. European colleges may not, but if that's true I'd guess it has more to do with tracking systems and admissions and payments and social systems we don't necessarily need to import in order to make med school an undergrad project.

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