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Notes -
I get the numbers. I consider the factors relevant to them. I consider the options in context of a variety of concerns relevant to my situation. Perhaps, I proceed with discussion and/or deliberation. I consider priorities and tradeoffs that likely apply. Then, I make decisions (perhaps a sequence of decisions). Are we going to have to go through Decision Theory 101? Are you next going to ask, "What is the nature of a decision?"
EDIT: Read the NYT snippet again if you are having difficulty.
The number you are asking for has nothing to do with you. If it impacts your decision you are looking at the surface of the moon to decide what sandwich to buy. It doesn't make sense.
When you go to the mechanic do you have the right to barge into the manager's office and ask him what his bonus was last year? That has nothing to do with your oil change. And you certainly shouldn't call the manager evil for not telling you about his bonus.
I am not asking about your bonus. I am asking for the charge that you will be submitting to my insurance and the negotiated rate. You know this. You have been told this over and over again. At this point, you can no longer be considered to be arguing in good faith.
You are asking for a number that has no impact on you. It does not impact how much you pay. It does not impact how much society pays. It does not impact how much your insurance pays. It does indicate quality of a given procedure.
As with the bonus it is unrelated to the issue at hand, since it does not impact you clinically or financially.
"Because" is not a reason to make things more complicated and more expensive, especially if it is at best irrelevant and at worst confuses people into make decisions using irrelevant information.
You have not indicated any value behind what you are asking for despite me repeatedly asking.
I think you need to admit that what you are asking for is for idle curiosity or provide a reason. Informed consent is not a reason because the information does not inform any consent!
Given that you are using bad-faith argumentation, the likes of which I would have to dig deep into the archives to recall, I'm not going to continue without a showing of good faith. Acknowledge, using the words, which numbers I am asking for, and state that you will no longer claim that I am asking for different numbers.
You argument is that its worth putting the effort into delivering some numbers to you (which numbers don't matter!) because none of those numbers have any impact on you. You claim they do, but when I say "what impact" you don't provide an impact.
Let's try: "because I want to choose the cheaper option." Not necessarily unwise, but those numbers don't help you do that.
What else?
I've only been skimming this conversation, but I'm pretty sure he's asking for pretty specific numbers. Speculating on his motives would probably be better left off until you can say which numbers he's asking for.
Over the course of this conversation it's moved around a bit, it's been both price as in cost and price as in charge, although he also added reimbursed rate at some point. In the situation we are talking about (planned procedures covered by insurance) neither of those numbers matter to the patient and the price as in charge is pretty firmly unrelated to the reimbursed rate as well as the price as in cost (since determining the actual cost is hideously complicated in the hospital and rarely relevant given it poorly related to what private and public insurers actually pay). The numbers are pretty much all made up as part of some weird dance between the hospital, government, and insurance. This is suboptimal but is the current state.
Hospital finances typically involve extracting as much money from the few parts of healthcare delivery that are actually profitable so that you can fund unprofitable portions of the hospital. Naively this sounds bad but when you consider things like the fact that the ED loses money because a sizable portion of the care it delivers is functionally free (the uninsured who can't pay)...well the alternative is worse because it involves people with no insurance or unknown insurance status just dying instead.
Just for a check, I counted nine comments where I asked for the same specific numbers and zero comments where I asked for any other specific numbers.
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If you're going to lie about which numbers I'm asking for, we're going to sit here all day, and your final argument will be, "If I lie about what numbers you're asking for..., then..." We will just leave it there for posterity.
I don't think you understand that the numbers you are asking for in the situation you are asking for them are untethered from your financial responsibility because of the presence of insurance.
If you're going to lie about which numbers I'm asking for, we're going to sit here all day, and your final argument will be, "If I lie about what numbers you're asking for..., then..." We will just leave it there for posterity.
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