This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'll also chime in here that this is not how most auto shops work. Probably not all of them; who knows what Jim-Bob is doing up in the hills. But most places are "flat rate" shops. They list their labor charge as $X/hr, but the way they figure out the amount of the actual charge is not by setting a stopwatch for when the mechanic starts/finishes the job. The history here is that many mechanics would get paid a direct portion of the shop rate (say, P% of the $X/hr that is billed). A lot of places still do this to incentivize the mechanic to get more stuff done and make the business more money (usually the final pay being determined as the minimum of either their labor charges for the pay period or a different hourly rate for on-the-clock time; e.g., they could get paid $20/hr for on-the-clock time or $45/hr of billable labor).
But obviously, it would be dumb incentives for them to be able to start a job, lollygag, take an extra few hours getting it done, and rack up the money. Instead, what the majority of shops do is just use a "book" (a computer these days, for sure) that estimates how long it would take an average mechanic to do that procedure on that car. That determines how much they quote/bill the customer... and how much the mechanic will get paid for that billable labor. This is extra incentive for the mechanic to work hard. If he can be more productive than the average book rate (e.g., he can get a three hour job done in two and a half, then start another job and rack up more billable labor hours), he can make even more money.
I will admit I have no insight into the inner workings of auto mechanics, as I experience it only from the customer side. I was speculating as to what might happen, but I can say that I have had auto shop bills come in higher than the estimate. So whatever the cause might be, it does happen.
Of course it happens. Most people are mostly okay with it happening sometimes, because they got an estimate, were told what the plan was and what the estimate was based on, were able to make an informed decision, and then were told what happened and why the charge was higher. Often times, we would call people when we ran into something that we saw would increase the price and tell them what was going on and if they had options. Many customers are price conscious, and you had to be communicative. If you were, and you made sense in your communication, they're mostly okay with it.
Contrast with the medical industry. Most consumers aren't nearly as price conscious, probably in part because they hardly feel like it's even an option to be1. (There are other reasons, more cultural, but one would have to get off on a tangent about Robin Hanson's terminology of the sacred/profane.) They just go to the doctor, do what he says, and magically a bill goes through their insurance company... and maybe they have to pay some of it. If they bother to inquire, there's a half decent chance they'll be told that it's impossible to know anyway. Every part of it is completely the opposite of the pro-active, communicative pricing information that even only half-decent auto shops provide. If we could get the median medical provider to have price transparency resembling the 25th percentile auto shop (with similar allowances for some situations to happen sometimes where final bills are higher than the estimate, but with similar communication), I'd be super happy. I think this is pretty possible to do.
1 - Yes, and some patients are in situations where they really really really aren't price conscious at all
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link