site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 18, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think if Gaza, South Africa we’re doing what Gaza, Israel is and has been doing, it might at least be seen as a low grade war. The Gaza situation arose because of a pretty serious terrorist attack. But even before that, the state had been lobbing missiles into the rest of Israel. And the history before the Hamas takeover of Gaza was one of repeated intifadas and terrorist attacks.

I’m not going to suggest that the Jews did nothing wrong, nor that they’re not doing anything wrong now. Obviously bombing hospitals and refugee encampments is a bad thing, to say the least. Flattening all of Gaza isn’t a good look here. But I think a lot of the over the top reactions are based on the Israeli fear that this might be the last time that they can do anything on Gaza because of world sentiment, and the frustration of thinking that these attacks will happen again as soon as the pressure is off.

If a war like that between two countries that hate each other, or even a civil war, I’m not sure how much anyone would care. Nobody cares about the Uyghur. Nobody is boycotting Saudi goods over Yemen. There’s been a low grade civil war between the Colombian government and FARC for decades. How many people care about the various other low grade wars going on? And how many would care if there weren’t sizeable Muslim and Jewish enclaves in major countries?

Obviously bombing hospitals and refugee encampments is a bad thing, to say the least.

Obviously it's a bad thing, but it's not obvious that the bombers are to be considered the ones responsible for the bad thing. The Geneva Conventions authors weren't quite solid enough on game theory to write that attacks on human shields are always and entirely the responsibility of the defenders-cum-war-criminals who used human shields, but they did write that such attacks are permissible when the military gain is proportionate to the harm to civilians. Building military bunkers under a hospital is only a war crime, not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

The South African government was widely condemned and sanctioned for its campaign against the ANC when the ANC was an actual literal terrorist group.