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I am seeking advice on how to fix a chronic, persistent, extreme lack of discipline.
I am currently 25, live with my mother, I have failed out of college (again) and I currently work part time at a grocery store for minimum wage within walking distance (I still don't have my driver's license). The reason I failed out of college both times was that I just didn't show up to class. When I did show up, I passed the exams with no real problem and I managed to pass a few classes with that. I have yet to tell my mother I failed the second time. I went to a 4 year college, failed out of that, then went to a 2 year community college. The only reason I managed to get a degree was that it was during COVID years, so the standards were super lax. I'm pretty sure I missed a few final exams, didn't hand in almost any assignments and yet somehow I still passed. After passing, I went back to the 4 year school and went back to failing.
I only have the job because, after I finished the 2 year degree, I didn't sign up for classes for the 4 year college in time, so I was doing nothing for months. My mother kept telling me to get a job since I wasn't in school and was threatening to kick me out if I didn't. She gave me multiple deadlines that I blew past with no consequence, but I could tell she was getting increasingly fed up. I ended up getting a job and I'm pretty sure if I waited a month or two longer, I would've been kicked out.
After the second time I failed, I decided to go to a therapist. She told me to see a psychiatrist for ADHD. He eventually said I have ADHD, and even though I am still quite skeptical of the diagnosis (for reasons I can go into if needed), I have been taking the Methylphenidate ER that I've been prescribed. I am only doing this because my mother has great insurance so all the therapists, doctors and medication is all paid for fully by insurance, but that will only last until I am 26 (close to a year from now). She also doesn't know I am going to a therapist, doctor or that I am taking any medicine.
With regards to my job, for reasons that I still do not know, I am able to go to my job without missing a day. I am almost always a few minutes late (anywhere from 0 to 10 minutes), but given the super low standards of a minimum wage job, I never get reprimanded in any way for it. But, I still always show up, unlike my school classes. This confusion is part of what prompted me to go to therapy. I have repeatedly tried to figure out why I am late and to fix it, but nothing really worked.
So, the question is: what do I do? Here is me listing all the options I can think of
Continue going to therapy and seeing the psychiatrist. Both haven't been helpful so far (I've seen two therapists so far. the first abruptly told me she was leaving that practice. Both have been similarly effective), but maybe they just need more time. Hopefully, I will learn why I didn't go to class and fix that, then I will go back to school, finish my degree and get a job like "normal". My worry: it's been 3 months of this so far and I can't see any progress, so I am not too optimistic. Plus, I'm not sure I can hide me failing from my mother much longer and if she does find out, I'm pretty sure I will be kicked out. Maybe I need a new therapist? If it's not part of insurance, as all the good therapists seem to be, I don't think I'd be able to afford it with my minimum wage job. And, even though every therapist that doesn't take insurance says they offer it cheaper for people that find it hard to pay, I'm not sure I'd qualify since, even though I make little money, my mother makes decent money.
Give up on college, give up on therapy, the psychiatry, the adhd medication and try to find a job with the 2 year degree I have. Hope that what happened with me not going to college doesn't happen at my new job. My worry: doing this without understanding why I failed in college seems very risky. I'm also not sure I can find a good enough job to move out with just a 2 year degree.
Tell my mother. Hope she gives me another chance. But then what? What is my plan then? No idea. Plus, I am unsure I would even get another chance (or if I deserve one). I mean, would you give me one? I don't think I would.
Continue working my dead end job. Eventually, my mother will figure out I failed, maybe she'll give me another chance, maybe not, eventually I get kicked out. (doom scenario)
Am I missing any options? What should I do? How do I fix this extreme lack of discipline? How do I fix this extreme laziness? Have you, or anyone you know, fixed this extreme lack of discipline? How?
If it matters, for context I live in the New York metropolitan area. Also, "kicked out" in this context doesn't mean me being homeless. I'm not 100% sure, but it probably means me either living with my dad, or my brother. However, if I don't solve my issues, they would probably kick me out eventually as well, and after that, who knows.
I mean, you’re showing up to your minimum wage job regularly, so you obviously have the capacity to keep up with obligations. Perhaps it’s just a habit. In which case, maybe your solution is pushing yourself hard for a few months to build the habits you need for success!
And this is probably 95% bullshit psychobabble, ignore me if this doesn’t apply to you, but as someone who struggled with procrastination I want to share my take.
Specifically, the fact that you struggle so much with school makes me think there’s something beyond just attention deficits that’s causing you to self-sabotage. My experience is that procrastination and self-sabotage comes from perfectionism and self doubt: in college I had no trouble completing easy assignments on time, but had a lot of trouble motivating myself to work on longform projects like essays, as I felt like I had to do them perfectly. I believe many problems with “self-discipline” actually boil down to feelings of insecurity and avoidance.
You’re obviously very concerned with not failing. Do you think maybe this contributed to your procrastination and avoidance? Were you so afraid that if you tried and failed, it would be a blow to your self-concept, and so you stopped yourself from trying and guaranteed a failure that you could say wasn’t because you were too dumb? Like, “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt?”
From your post, you’re analytical and thoughtful — most people in your situation aren’t able to sit down and analyze it as you have, they end up kicked out on the street without realizing what’s going on. And because you’re here, it’s pretty safe to assume that you’re at least above average in intelligence. Are you afraid of disproving that? Are you concerned that doing your all and failing at your 4 year college would make you feel small and pathetic? Maybe you struggle less in your minimum wage job because you consider it below you, easy, and therefore unthreatening? You can imagine yourself being some kind of starving artist, an undervalued renegade, maybe?
Have either of your therapists talked about short-term vs long-term benefits before? Have you looked into what blocks you from doing things, what benefits procrastination provides you in the moment, like emotional relief, even if it destroys your long term goals? Or do you not even get to the point where you know you have an assignment due Sunday night and it’s Sunday at 3pm and you decide not to try?
What’s your associate’s in? What kind of program were you working on at the 4 year college?
I initially thought that this 100% didn't apply to me since I didn't do simple assignments as well the long form ones, but now I am thinking of a few examples of me avoiding things cause I can't do it perfectly, so I need to reflect on this more. In particular, I'm thinking of times at work when I avoid doing things because I don't know exactly how some minor thing should be done, e.g. "should the sticker be like this, or rotated 90 degrees? Should I ask the manager? No, that's a super dumb question over a minor thing. I'll just do something else" That also made me think of times I avoid doing household chores because I don't know how exactly my mother wants it to be done. (I am the prototypical "weaponized incompetence" trope that women on social media complain about)
It's very hard for me to try to remember my emotions. My therapist keeps trying to get me to remember what it feels like when I didn't go to class and I find it very hard. This seems plausible, so I will try to think about it more.
This definitely resonated with me. This instantly made me think of all the times I had an ego and thought my coworkers were dumb. I need to think about this more.
My first therapist was very nice, but, other than telling me to go to a psychiatrist, I can't really say she was helpful. I've only seen the new one a few times so far, but she's been more thought provoking than the last one even if I can still tell that she is fresh out of school like the last one.
Emotional relief sounds accurate because I usually play games or watch youtube and avoid thinking about the assignment or other thing I have to do. I am usually aware of the assignment well before it is due, so I definitely know when it's due and don't forget.
The associate's is in accounting, and ideally, I would've stayed in school to get all the credits to become a CPA, but then my plan shifted to just finishing the degree, finding work, then doing the CPA college credits later on. Then, I failed enough accounting classes that the repeat policy meant I couldn't continue an accounting degree, so I switched to another business degree. But then I failed enough classes that I can't even finish any business degrees at that college anymore. So, if I do go back to school, I'd need to go to a different college since my accounting bachelor's is what I am closest to finishing.
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You sound quite a bit like me. Post on the latest wellness Wednesday thread please, that way you will get more eyeballs.
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Why might you not have ADHD?
I have plenty of reasons for against my ADHD diagnosis, so I think it's easier if I list it in a roughly chronological order
I only really considered that I might have ADHD after a streamer said they had it, got medicated and then was way more productive and focused. They described it in a way that felt like it could apply to me. Points for: this made me seriously consider ADHD Points against: am I just being influenced into thinking I have ADHD like all those patients that news articles and doctors on the psychiatry subreddit complain about? Am I just another one of those self-diagnosed tiktok people?
I did a lot of research on ADHD prior to going to a therapist Points for: A lot of the questionnaires I did said I had ADHD (I looked for official, actually used questionnaires, not shoddy websites) Points against: not every questionnaire said I had ADHD and when it did say I had it, more often than not I was barely within the ADHD range. Also, am I just Barnum effecting myself with these questionnaires?
I went to a therapist and she recommended I see a psychiatrist to test for ADHD Points for: a neutral unbiased person said I might have ADHD. Big point for. Points against: she was clearly just reading a questionnaire that was very similar to ones I had done myself while researching it. She was also young and seemingly fresh out of school. So, did I unintentionally coach myself by researching ADHD beforehand?
The psychiatrist eventually diagnosed me with ADHD Points for: a real, professional psychiatrist diagnosed me with ADHD. Very big point for. Points against: the psychiatrist initially said I probably didn't have ADHD. Then, I did a TOVA test, slightly landed in the ADHD range of the test, and now he thinks I have ADHD and tried to instantly prescribe me medication (I declined and wanted to think about it first. I eventually agreed). When I later researched computer ADHD tests, they did not seem very reliable compared to taking a patient history, which this doctor didn't do. The psychiatrist also tried to get me to do a genetic test to see which medication "matched" my genes, but when I researched that, the evidence for it being effective seemed weak. So, I have a slight hunch that he is just trying to get more money from me.
I started Methylphenidate ER Points for: I feel slightly more focused and haven't really felt "wired" Points against: even after two dosage increases (I'm on 36mg right now. The other day, I took 45mg using leftover, lower dosed, pills from before my dosage increased. It felt the same as 36mg), it is not really that big of an effect. It feels like being on caffeine all day. From research, I know that you shouldn't use a negative/low reaction to stimulants as a way to rule out an ADHD diagnosis, but surely it is relevant in a Bayesian sense, right?
Another thing is that I don't fit the stereotypical ADHD person. When I showed up, I was always able to focus in class, in boring meetings, etc. I was a "quiet" kid. I was always able to sit still in class and such and never really caused problems. Someone who can sit still and focus in class (if I couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to pass any classes given I basically never did homework or other assignments. My test grades saved me) does not really fit the ADHD image
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