This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
So it is environmental.
Wait, wouldn't the contradict your point ?
If it is straight up regression to the mean, then the child of any 2 identical geniuses is just as likely to be a genius as the child of any other 2 geniuses. Because all children of geniuses will regress to the overall mean of mankind at the same rate. (assuming the same environment)
So the answer for both would be 'No'.
I'd phrase my statement as : "Once you control for parents + environment, is the avg IQ of the parents' groups completely irrelevant?".
or
"Obama and Michelle's kids, can be expected to be as smart as a Chinese Obama and Chinese Michelle's kids".
It could be non-linear genetic (like favorable heterozygous combinations), or it could be random.
You speak of "mankind" but bear in mind, that during last hundreds of thousand of years, there were different species of humans (like, say, Flores Hobbit) and divergence started from seemingly small differences at first like we see now in extant populations. ... for a simple one-gene example, think of probability of two dark-eyes Swedes to produce a light eyed child vs probability of two dark-eyed Nigerians to produce a light eyed child. These Sweden parents probably have one recessive copy of allele for light eyes, the Nigerian parents almost certainly don't.
More options
Context Copy link
I mean this politely because I'm glad you're taking the time to understand, but you didn't quite grasp what he was saying.
Let me try to rephrase.
Each individual's IQ (really their g, which IQ measures decently for most purposes) is partly genetic and partly environmental. [EDIT: As I get to below, it's probably best here to understand 'environmental' as meaning 'random'.]
Say we want to define "genius" as starting at IQs of 140. Someone might naturally be at that level regardless of losing out on the potential environmental bonus. Someone else might genetically be somewhat below that level but still attain it because they got lucky on the environmental component. Either way they are 'geniuses' -- but one is substantially more likely to pass that trait on to their descendants, because they're that smart with or without the environmental portion.
With me so far?
Okay, so, imagine two populations. On average, one of them is smarter than the other. This one will produce more geniuses. The less-intelligent population may also produce geniuses, but these are more likely to be individuals who lucked out on the environmental factors. Put another way, some of them are genetically prone to genius, while others got lucky.
If you take the child of two geniuses from the first population, it's possible that those geniuses were also simply both lucky. But it's less likely than in the case of a child of two geniuses from the second population.
Does that make sense?
Now,
No, because there are substantial genetic differences between ancestral groups. The 'mean' in 'regression to the mean' is the mean of that child's ancestral group, and the more specific (say, only looking at the last few generations of ancestors) the more accurate. If an ancestral group has an average IQ of 110, the fact that people somewhere else have an average IQ of 85 doesn't somehow affect their children.
Also, I'm pretty sure that 'environmental' doesn't mean what you think it means here, but it's hard to say more without pressing you for details and either way it's too much to go into right now. I'll say that 'environment' includes all sorts of things like individual experiences and happenstance. Putting kids in the same house, school, and workplace doesn't result in identical kids. In fact at this level it would probably be more helpful for you to understand 'environmental' as meaning 'random' than anything to do with 'setting'.
That said, there are plenty of indications that even things we chalk up to as 'environmental' have their roots in heredity. Suppose someone gets in a fight in the wrong kind of bar and suffers some long-term psychological damage from what happens next. That's environmental, right? Could happen to anyone. But actually, even the tendency to be in such a situation is rooted in heritable personality traits.
No, it's not. Parents carry all sorts of traits which may not be expressed in their generation (their individual phenotype) but still express in their children.
As I understand the question, the answer is 'no' but I'll admit that I'm having a hard time understanding where you're coming from with the Obama thing.
More options
Context Copy link
It is non-inherited. This doesn't mean environmental. It could be; it could be literally random.
No.
It is not, because the IQ of the parents' groups gives you some insight into the hidden variables. A genius from a family of geniuses most likely has a high inherited component to his IQ; a genius from a family of normies most likely has a high non-inherited component.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link