site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 23, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Great review! Thanks!

Where are the Mountains, or the Deserts, or the Plains?

That was an interesting feature of Zvi's review:

The Village might be in somewhat of a cold war with The River, but the River is not its natural enemy or mirror. Something else is that.

So what do we call this third group? Not ‘everyone not in the Village or River’ and not ‘the other political party’ but rather: The natural enemies of The Village?

I asked for the LLM consensus is in, and there is a clear winner that I agree is indeed this group’s True Name in this schema, that works on many levels: The Wilderness.

You've now got me down a rabbit hole, as Zvi linked to other reviewers. I enjoyed this particular passage from one

The flip side of Nate not holding back is that sometimes he writes things that seem like clichés. Here he is talking about an artist who was “in the right place at the right time” and made a ton of money from non-fungible tokens: “When I spoke with Winkelmann—a.k.a. Beeple—I was expecting someone with the self-important air of being a serious artist or at least someone whose success had gone to his head. Instead Beeple was extremely down-to-earth, dropping f-bombs about once every fifteen seconds in a thick Wisconsin accent.”

Hey, wait a minute! The macho regular-guy artist . . . that’s standard operating practice in the art world. You’ve heard of Jackson Pollock, right? Who was from Cody, Wyoming—that’s even more earthy than being from Wisconsin. Silver’s quote reminds me uncomfortably of the story from Freakonomics of an unnamed “academic” who says something stupid, only to be shot down by regular-guy “Chuck Esposito, a genial, quick-witted and thoroughly sports-fixated man who runs the race and sports book at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas,” which in turn reminded of the punchline of that joke from grade school: “Hey, man, the smartest guy in the world just jumped out of the plane wearing my backpack.”

I’m not saying that Beeple isn’t a smart, down-to-earth guy; I’m just resisting Nate’s dressing him in rogue’s clothing. In some ways, this sort of thing is almost necessary: Nate’s giving us a tour of a world that he loves, he’s writing about to his friends, and so of course he wants to present them in a positive light. If Nate were to describe Beeple as, for example, “the typical self-important ‘serious artist’ who signals his regular-guy status by cultivating a thick Wisconsin accent and carefully dropping f-bombs into his conversation,” well, what would be the point of that? It’s kind of like sportswriting: with rare exceptions, we like the athletes to be presented in a positive light. Similarly, we are introduced to “Will MacAskill, a boyish-looking Oxford professor of philosophy with an endearing Scottish lilt.” I have a horrible feeling that if I’m not careful I’d be described as a “shifty-eyed academic who speaks in a nasal east-coast suburban accent,” rather than, say, a “charming gray-haired statistician with many of the attributes of the absent-minded professor.”

There's definitely a certain groan-inducing lack of skepticism in the book.

Thanks for linking Zvi's review. He's a bit more of a joiner than I am, so I suspect it will be a bit more of a River's view of the River.