site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 9, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

No. It's not. I'm a Marxist. If it were real I would have heard of it.

I don't see why I should assume this is true.

This leads to at least one of two conclusions:

  1. I am in on the conspiracy. And I am lying to you.
  2. Somehow, you and a bunch of other online fascist adjacent types understand Marxism better than me.

Well, why don't we argue over the facts of whether or not Cultural Marxism is a myth, and then you can tell me which one of those was correct.

You mean academic singular.

Off the top of my head I can think of Richard R. Weiner, Douglas Kellner, and Emily Hicks, so plural. I remember there were more, but I'd have to start searching.

Eventually someone just went to google scholar and found a book with the title Cultural Marxism from the 80s or 90s from some literal who.

a) I think the term goes back to WWII or thereabouts, and there's been several books written about it.

b) "Myth" means it didn't happen, not that it was neiche.

The other works the conspiracists like to cite never call themselves "cultural marxist" e.g. the Frankfurt School.

The students of the core Frankfurt School thinkers were calling themselves cultural marxist, so this is flatly wrong, unless you want to say that people who studied directly under them don't get to call themselves "Frankfurt School".

Again we are talking about a supposed movement that's brought much of the developed world to its knees. Despite the fact economic leftism as a movement is laughably dead and pathetic now. Not some micro book from around the collapse of the USSR.

Yes. It brought it to it's knees culturally not economically. This is why the "Cultural" part of "Cultural Marxism" is so important, and the deadness of economic leftism is irrelevant.

If wokeness had much to do with serious Marxism maybe I would be Woke. I'm not. I'm opposed to it.

I don't get why Marxists get so defensive on this. I agree that OG economic Marxism is not responsible for any of this nonsense.

The term certainly appears starting from the 60s, though, it must be said, not incredibly prominently. I don't think this by itself proves very much, though. "Cultural Marxism" in the sense of 2010s-and-20s culture wars just doesn't seem like something that has much to do with a handful of 1960s academics.

Much like the term “Neoreaction”, “Cultural Marxism” is really several strands of Marxist and post Marxist thought that has been woven together to form what is now the dominant group of ideologies on the academic left since the new left moved from the streets to the classroom and beyond.

Antonio Gramsci, an Italian Marxist, is the real jumping off point. Critical theory, third worldism, post colonial theory, orientalism, all these things flow from that particular bend in the road.

It’s a descriptor of a family tree of thought with a common ancestry. Without classical Marxism it certainly wouldn’t exist. It’s certainly a much more accurate and narrower description than “The Successor Ideology” or “Woke”.

I think the reluctance to be named, which has been expounded on both satirically and seriously by better writers than I, is ironically part of the fuel for the whole “conspiracy theory”. There’s no shortage of articles basically saying “Ok, you don’t like term X so what the fuck do we call this clearly aligned school of thought?”. “The ideology who shan’t be named?”

The term certainly appears starting from the 60s, though, it must be said, not incredibly prominently.

I recall reading something by Walter Benjamin from just before the war, but back then it boiled down to "Marxists talking about culture".

Cultural Marxism" in the sense of 2010s-and-20s culture wars just doesn't seem like something that has much to do with a handful of 1960s academics.

Why not? What they were saying back then was eerily similar to what would define modern culture wars. I'm half-willing to make a bet that if you trace the influences of people like Ibrahim X. Kendi or Robin Di Angelo you'll run right into those 60's academics.