site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   3856 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for August 18, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

2
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Is there any way to tease apart the retention rate of the ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox in America? There seems like a lot of different possible elements at play:

  • Orthodox schooling

  • The narratives of the religion versus the action-prescriptions of the religion

  • The ethnic homogeneity of most orthodox (Eastern European Ashkenazi)

  • Ostracization for defectors

  • [Whatever I’m missing]

ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox in America?

Just a note on (missing) context: it took me a moment to realize you were talking about Orthodox Jews, and not Eastern Orthodox Christians; it was ambiguous for me up until "Eastern European Ashkenazi."

My bad, “modern orthodox” is Jewish term of art but I forgot that’s not popular knowledge.

@2rafa might have more insight, but my impression is that modern orthodox are basically normal people in the society in which they happen to be residents, who happen to have a bunch of extra rules to follow as a consequence of being religiously eccentric- little different from other high demand religions like Mormons or tradcaths- and ultra-orthodox are very much not, the the extent of many haredi groups refusing to allow their children to learn the local vernacular(they use Yiddish at home and Hebrew for religion) or participate in the secular economy. Groups which do this and aren’t Amish or haredi are called cults.

Right, but “modern orthodox” (a denomination name) still has a high retention rate (in a sense): 60% remain, but 30% leave to become ultra-orthodox (“Yeshiva Orthodox”), and only 10% leave to a non-orthodox flavor or apostasy. So it’s pretty much a 90% retention rate with a push toward ultra-orthodoxy. I agree that modern orthodox are approximately normal in terms of work, taxes, civic participation etc. They still send their kids to specific schools and camps however.

Modern Orthodox is a big range of observance. In the UK a lot of Jews are members of the United Synagogue, which is technically ‘Modern Orthodox’, but are otherwise pretty much secular, don’t keep kosher, aren’t particularly frum, the men don’t wear kippot, many of the kids go to secular (if usually private) school. Jewish summer camp (or secular summer camp that is like 80%+ Jewish, which is how it was for us in NYC and it’s similar in NJ) isn’t so much an orthodox-only or even primarily orthodox thing.

First you'd have to define the difference between "orthodox" and "ultra-orthodox" and which denominations count as which.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats